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Topic: Double life

  1. Only I know
    Only I know avatar
    214 posts
    1 October 2018 in reply to Creutz

    Hey Cruetz, glad you feel this way. Unfortunately a lot of us have had those thoughts though. Maybe I didn't feel less of a man, but certainly less than human. But that's all the negative crap that goes through your head when you are at your worst. There are still days when I do feel that, but not to the intensity and frequency that I used to.

    Hope things are going okay for you.

    Daz

    1 person found this helpful
  2. Creutz
    Creutz avatar
    11 posts
    1 October 2018 in reply to Only I know

    Hi Daz, yes I agree. I had these thoughts also a number of years ago, but not now.

    I’ve decided that this week I’m going to tell my wife that something needs to change - that I have a closed loop open relationship with my guy, or we need to separate. I’ve thought about it a lot these past few days in particular, and my wife (who knows I’m gay) cannot expect that I would be happy to not experience intimacy with another man. It would be the equivalent of her not having intimacy with men, and she has been able to experience that for her entire adult life with me. Yes, I chose to marry her and she believes that this is a lifelong commitment (as it should be really) but I’m pretty sure that my exclusive attraction to men voids this contract.

    No doubt she will say that my focus should be entirely on my son, but I also have a life to live. Being in an open relationship in my marriage or separating isn’t about my son. It doesn’t impact on my ability to be a good father.

    1 person found this helpful
  3. Only I know
    Only I know avatar
    214 posts
    1 October 2018 in reply to Creutz

    Hey Cruetz, that is a fantastic and very brave decision for you to make. Just remember to try and be gentle. Yes you are right, you do also have a life to live - we all only get one, and we all deserve to be happy, and free to be who we are.
    As we said before, being separated doesn't mean that you won't be helping raise your son. I'm not quite yet separated but the day is looming very soon, but my wife and I have made plans in relation to the raising of our kids. Mine are older than yours, so that means both easier and harder at the same time. Because they are older, it will be harder on them when I don't come home every night, but then they are also more understanding of how the world works too. For your young son, he will know no different.

    I know that you understand that your wife will struggle with it, being a new mum, and her husband making a big call. She will already be emotional after having the child, but she will also have him to help take things off her mind. She has been through a lot too with the IVF, and will be confused and hurt.

    I would encourage both you and your wife to seek some sort of counselling, either together or separate. Maybe you might feel that you don't need it as you have your guy, but I'm sure she will need it.

    Make sure that you communicate with her constantly, in a gentle caring way, through this and going forward. Make sure you listen and ask for her opinion and how she feels about it. Don't give her any reason to turn the situation ugly. I've done this with my wife and so far it has worked out extremely well.

    I really wish you both the best, having a young child is such a wonderful joy. Have the right people around you to share it with is also a joy.

    Go forward and be happy. Enjoy being you, and enjoy being a dad, a wonderful partner to your guy, and a loving friend to your wife.

    Let us know how you go. Good luck on this journey.

    cheers

    Daz

    2 people found this helpful
  4. Creutz
    Creutz avatar
    11 posts
    2 October 2018 in reply to Only I know
    Thanks Daz. Based on your post, it looks as though you believe that she will choose to separate. I’m hoping that this is not necessarily the case, but hey, her reaction is going to be unpredictable.
    1 person found this helpful
  5. Esti67
    Esti67 avatar
    77 posts
    2 October 2018 in reply to Creutz

    Hi Creutz,

    I echo Darren, his words are very wise. Gentle gentle gentle. For me, i just fell on my sword when i told my husband and cried and apologised a lot. (And we still do). Although in theory you you don't have to apologise for who you are and this is part of self acceptance which takes time, it did help him to see just how untenable the situation was for the both of us. We also don't have the added pressure of a newborn. The fact that you have already told her you are gay will soften the blow but it will still be hard for her to absorb. When our son left his wife this year following the birth of their daughter it affected all of us. He was still involved in fathering but like you in an incredibly bad way. He couldn't be his best as a father until he sorted himself out. We were all in shock, why would he want to leave, the best time of your life right?? Things are good now but when it was happening we early had breakdowns ourselves. You may get a big backlash from family so prepare for that. Keep good people around you, this will be a turning point in your life.

    Good luck

    E

  6. Only I know
    Only I know avatar
    214 posts
    2 October 2018 in reply to Creutz

    Hey Cruetz, obviously what I think doesn't matter, but in essence what I think I'm saying is plan for the worst, hope for the best (yep, the old cliché!). My opinion is really only based around my own knowledge and experiences.

    Personally, if I was in your same situation, I would prefer to be off with my new guy, but still be in very close daily contact with my wife and new born son, supporting and raising both emotionally and financially. I could not imagine living with my wife and raising our new baby, but knowing that the man I love, and loves me back, is off in the wings - and that everyone is happy with the situation that way. I would feel like I was having my cake and eating it too, I would always be worried that even with how much I loved it, would my wife and my guy? what would happen the moment that something changed? Sorry if I come across a bit harsh - it isn't intended to be.

    In my case, I just cannot imagine it working out the best for everyone (though I have read plenty of posts in other forums here where it seems to) - if this is truly what you desire, and both your wife and guy are not just okay with it, but are happy, then I say GO FOR IT!! and truly, from the bottom of my heart hope it works out for you.

    As I said before, everyone deserves to be happy - YOU, your wife, and your guy, so the thing to ask yourself is what does this look like? have you asked your guy what he wants? does he want you to be with him? for you to say that he is your partner? I'd maybe be 100% sure of what he wants before you say anything to your wife. What if he is now past the point of caring? then you say something to your wife - she wants separation and then your guy wants out?

    Just be careful, thoughtful and sure of what you want. I truly hope that it works out for you. We all are here to offer you advice and to perhaps challenge your thinking. Through my journey over the last few months, plenty of people have challenged my words and it made me think. I didn't necessarily change what I did, but I felt more confident with my choices and decisions. I just hope that I offer you some value.

    have a great day

    Daz

    2 people found this helpful
  7. Johnny_11
    Johnny_11 avatar
    28 posts
    5 October 2018 in reply to Creutz

    Hey Creutz

    Sorry, work has been sooooo hectic for me this week.

    Did you have the chat? how'd it go??

    Maybe this is too late, but I probably wouldn't give an ultimatum first off. I'd open up to her about the struggles and stress you've been feeling, and that you would like to explore an open loop relationship with your guy, and ask her how she feels about it. You want to create an environment where you can both talk opening and negotiate the terms. Even if it ends in separation, your wife will be in your life for at least the next 18 years, you want to have a good relationship with her, giving her an ultimatum straight up isn't very positive. Also you've been dealing with this for the past year or two, i'm expecting she's going to be a little shocked.

    Hey Daz & Craig, how are you both? I don't really have any friends in the "real" world and def not anyone that I would chat to about this stuff, so I've really enjoyed our chats. Thanks.

    John

    3 people found this helpful
  8. C4
    C4 avatar
    107 posts
    5 October 2018 in reply to Johnny_11
    I’m sad at the moment sorry guys
  9. Johnny_11
    Johnny_11 avatar
    28 posts
    6 October 2018 in reply to C4

    hey Craig, whats up? why you sad?

    Please respond, worried about you.

    Its ok to feel sad, you know it doesn't last, you will feel better. Is there someone you can talk to? Wish we could DM here.

    I'm going to check this post regularly for your reply :)

    John

    1 person found this helpful
  10. C4
    C4 avatar
    107 posts
    6 October 2018 in reply to Johnny_11

    The reason I’m sad is because a friend of mine that I befriended through my lgbt group blocked me on Facebook and messanger and don’t know why there was no explanation or reason . Two weeks ago he invited me to his friends birthday dinner then we all went to a club over the road but I didn’t know we had to pay $10 to get in . I don’t carry cash so he paid for me . The next day he asked for the money back as it slipped my mind which is fair enough but said he doesn’t lend money to friends or family due to people not paying it back . I dropped it off in his letter box that day but didn’t go in as it was slightly uncomfortable. I didn’t hear anything off him all week and when I messaged him he replied once then blocked me . I feel so gutted and sad right now I feel like I’m unlovable and unlikable at the moment when all I want is friendship and company. I feel that no one wants to be my friend and don’t know why and I’m sick of crying over it and don’t know what I’ve done wrong maybe I’ve got too much baggage for them . I hate being gay right now as I’m beginning to think this is the life I’m stuck with no friends and no partner to want me as I want more than just sex I want to be loved and it saddens me to think I’ll never find someone. I just want someone to be honest with me and tell me if they don’t want to be my friend. Maybe I don’t deserve that honesty who knows . I’m sorry to be negative guys I’m just down at the moment.

  11. Johnny_11
    Johnny_11 avatar
    28 posts
    6 October 2018 in reply to C4

    Hey mate, wish I could give you a hug.

    Youre not unlovable or u likeable. You’re just going through a major change in your life, you have to cut yourself some slack, give yourself some time to adjust

    something doesn’t add up with your friend. He obviously likes you because he invited you to the dinner, but then to block you over $10, and you paid him back. Maybe there’s been a misunderstanding..??? Or maybe he’s going through his own stuff...???

    I know it’s hard to make friends when your older, I know first hand. Other than my wife and kids, I don’t have anyone else that I would classify as a close friend.

    Recently I became friends with a guy, we clicked straight away, chatting daily, and then he started pulling away, not wanting to catch up or returning my texts. I was really hurt by it. After thinking about it for a while, I realised that most people have brothers, sisters, cousins, work colleagues, and friends, and I don’t have any of those. When I get a friend, they get 100% of my time, but I might get only 10% of theirs.... maybe what I’m trying to say is for me, and maybe for you too, these situations are amplified because we don’t have any other friends in our lives.

    I hope you’re feeling better. Let me know.

    John

    1 person found this helpful
  12. Only I know
    Only I know avatar
    214 posts
    7 October 2018 in reply to Johnny_11

    Hey John,

    that's very well put.

    Craig you are awesome, and don't ever forget that. You've shown us all a lot of love, friendship and compassion over the last few months.

    John, you're spot on with the friend thing. I'm pretty much the same, I have no close friends. I have friends that are my wife and mine, and they are awesome, but I don't have one that I'm close to. I have brothers, but I'm estranged with 1, and rarely speak to the other - we just don't have anything in common.

    I also give any new friend 100% of my time, and like you said, they may only give us 10% of theirs, I guess we should also consider that perhaps by giving them so much of ourselves that it may be too much for them - they may only want 10% of our time as well. Unless of course it is going down the path of a relationship, where you'd expect to both give and receive more of each others time, but it's important to remember that even in relationships, people need space.

    I think best to try and "go with the flow" - something I struggle with coz i'm not that kind of guy!

  13. C4
    C4 avatar
    107 posts
    7 October 2018 in reply to Only I know
    Thanks John and Darren for your kind words I’m sure it’s more him than me . There was nothing romantic involved I just wanted his friendship that’s all but maybe because I was annoyed about the money side of things put him off but I still should have got an explanation it he didn’t want my friendship. I agree with you John I wish there was a way to DM on here but I understand the rules and why people might want to remain anonymous and confidential. But I think if there is a way for others who want to connect with each other provided it’s mutual then maybe it should be allowed but this is my opinion that’s all . That being said he’s still a member of a GLBT social group so I’ll still go to functions but I won’t make things uncomfortable for us as it’s not professional. Thanks for listening guys I appreciate it . Craig
  14. Johnny_11
    Johnny_11 avatar
    28 posts
    7 October 2018 in reply to C4

    Hi Craig and Daz

    craig, I also think it’s more your friends issue. Have you thought about sending him a message, something along the lines of I think we’ve had a misunderstanding and I’ve done something to upset you, I’m really sorry about this. I don’t want our friendship to change, can we catch up for a chat?

    someone needs to be the first to put their hand out, if you want friends then it needs to be you.

    J

    1 person found this helpful
  15. C4
    C4 avatar
    107 posts
    8 October 2018 in reply to Johnny_11

    I won’t message I’ll wait until the next gathering then mention to him quietly and see what he says if he wants to be friends then all good if not it’s his loss . But I won’t make a scene about it . But I guess it’s up to me your right but I’m not letting it get to me anymore. But thanks for the support.

  16. Creutz
    Creutz avatar
    11 posts
    8 October 2018 in reply to Johnny_11

    Well it happened over the weekend. It's so hard on here because it's simply words on a screen. I can't convey the emotions, pain or the experience using words. It was extremely tough with crying, yelling and ultimately threats. I'm in a very dark place right now, however I'm trying to stay positive. In a nutshell, my wife certainly isn't keen on me having a closed-loop relationship with the man I've been secretly seeing. She really doesn't understand what it means to be gay, and believes that it's just about sex. She feels that allowing a relationship with my guy will lead to me ultimately leaving her, and doesn't understand the depth of my feelings for the man I'm with. I tried to explain that its a different love, but not love that competes with her. I do understand how she feels though... that I have "stolen" this special time with our newborn son from her. She certainly had a point when she said that if I had both her and my guy, that I wouldn't be able to give myself fully to either, and that wouldn't be fair to either or them. There are some things that stick with you, and I know that she was extremely angry, however she said something about the man I'm seeing that was very cruel and demeaning, to the point where I will not repeat it on here (the moderators wouldn't allow the word to be used). She also said that going down this path will lead to me losing her, her family and my son as she would choose to move back to her hometown. Although her hometown is only about 1.5 hours away, it would tear me apart as I must keep my day-to-day job here and I wouldn't be able to see him everyday.

    I'm probably only portraying the worse parts of the discussion, but these are the things that stick with you. She has said "You should just be with him" and "I just want you to be happy". However today, Monday morning, she had written a very long note about how she was feeling. That she doesn't know how we can come back from here, but telling me that I chose to marry her and also provided details about the life that she thinks I will miss if I leave. I understand that she is fighting to keep me as her husband, but I feel as though it is a form of emotional blackmail and I feel trapped. To make me feel so bad about what I'm doing and what i would be missing out on that I then choose to stay with her. Last night she came into the bedroom and I was crying hysterically, and I could tell that she was hoping it was because I had broken it off with my guy.

    I'm so confused.

    2 people found this helpful
  17. Definitely Otherwise
    Definitely Otherwise avatar
    87 posts
    9 October 2018 in reply to Creutz

    Hi Creutz,

    I hope my previous post didn’t come off too strong but just tried to give you a sense of it from the man you’re in love with perspective. I’m not judging you, I know you feel torn, but being on the receiving end of a person who is “having their cake and eating it too”, is pretty awful. And it sounds like your guy has given you a lot of emotional support during the rollercoaster of IVF and you really relied on him.

    I’ll be honest with you Creutz, I’m really not surprised about your wifes reaction. There was evidence of how she thinks about same sex attraction in her immediate response. When I read your posts initially I didn’t speak up, but I found your wife’s initial reaction over 12 months ago when she found the Q Life conversation quite unbelievable and shocking. I can’t imagine finding something like that on my husbands computer and burying my head in the sand. Dismissing it like all I had done was find some porn on his laptop.

    When I read it, I thought, this women does not believe that 2 people of the same sex can fall madly in love with one another. To her, it is merely somewhere in the realm of being pornographic, kinky, sexually adventurous and simple guys being sexed crazed guys, and certainly nothing real. I think she still believes those things.

    How many LGBTI friends does your wife have? Does she have any? She seems sheltered.

    I can understand that she is in raw emotion right now. Of course she is angry, she wouldn’t be human if she wasn’t. She feels undesirable and humiliated, so she’s spitting out horrible stuff, but she has to ask herself why did she close the door on the conversation over a year ago?? That should have been a critical juncture in the marriage.

    Using your son to emotionally manipulate you is so harsh and really awful. She knows how much you love him and are devoted to him. And also using the threat of loneliness is awful, reminding you of everyone you would lose!

    It’s an extremely difficult situation and you must be sick with stress and anxiety.

    I hope that in your wife’s mind the counselling would be to address the high emotions & hurt, and to figure out if it is possible to have a ‘mixed-orientation’ marriage, and not gay ‘conversion’ therapy. Cos’ right now I think she may believe the bond between 2 men isn’t real. And certainly a lot less real than between a man and a women.

    I know it's really early days and hopefully this is just part of the fire that comes with being hurt.

    Take care
    Def.

    1 person found this helpful
  18. Johnny_11
    Johnny_11 avatar
    28 posts
    9 October 2018 in reply to Creutz

    Hey mate, I'm so sorry this didn't work out like you were hoping. You must be so stressed and confused at the moment, and I imagine that you wife is feeling the same and most likely very angry at you.

    I hope though, that through all this confusion and stress you feel a weight lifted off you that you don't have to hide this anymore. I know I did, but the flip side is you will see the hurt your causing your wife. It tore me up, and you question if you made the right decision. But its best to be honest with yourself and your wife, and move forward from there.

    Do you have anyone for support?

    It's not the best time to make rash decisions about your future now. Maybe you could suggest to her that you both commit to stay together for the next 6 months or so to work this out. Not make any life changing decisions during that time, go to counselling and discuss options for your future. Thats what I did.

    You really need a LGBT counsellor and ideally someone with experience in mixed orientation marriages, I know one is Sydney that also does sessions through Skype if you need his details.

    It's hard to say if your wife is using your son against you, she may well be, she's very angry and hurt, and is looking at ways to get back at you, but hopefully this will pass. But if you separate then she's thinking she will want some family around her for support, and it just happens that her family is far away.

    Regardless you have rights as a father, and she can't take that away. Hopefully she can move past the hurt and regardless of your relationship with her, she will realise that it's important for your son to have a relationship with you. Not only that, its hard work raising a kid on your own, she will need the help.

    Keep in mind that you have been dealing with this for 12 months or more, and your wife had no idea this was coming, and you've just turned her whole world up side down. It's going to take her some time to process. I gave my wife some space, and just got on with everyday life. And I'd let her ask what ever she wanted, but I wouldn't answer in specific details, I didn't want to say anything early on that she wouldn't be able to move past.

    The next few days will be hard, I'll be thinking of you, and waiting for an update.

    Hugs
    John

    3 people found this helpful
  19. Only I know
    Only I know avatar
    214 posts
    9 October 2018 in reply to Creutz

    Hey Cruetz, congratulations on having the courage to go through with it (though doubt you like that word for this) but you know it had to be done. It'll be rough for a little while, so you just need to try and remain strong. Johnny has pretty much said everything, speak to an lgbt friendly counsellor, Qlife can recommend one, or just give them a call they can help too.

    As Johnny said, don't make rash decisions, be patient with your wife. She should also seek some counselling and an LGBT friendly one would assist her too as they can often answer the questions far better than any of us can. My wife came with me to a session I had with mine, and he explained it in such a way that it made it so clear for her and we have been great since.

    Don't get angry back, she'll be scared and worried and fighting won't help it will just drive a bigger wedge between you. You still have an opportunity to be a significant other for each other, just not in the old way.

    I hope your guy is supporting you well emotionally, as you will need to lean on him more over the next few weeks. encourage your wife to at least talk to a friend.

    Things will no doubt improve with a little patience and understanding and continued love.

    I hope things pick up soon for you.

    Daz

    1 person found this helpful
  20. Esti67
    Esti67 avatar
    77 posts
    9 October 2018 in reply to Creutz

    Hi Creutz,

    So sorry to hear that this has turned so ugly for all of you. I hope you are ok. It's only early days and whilst you have had a lot of time to figure out what to do and where you are with all of this for your wife it is brand new information for her and understandably she is in shock. Her reaction is one of grief and its going to sting for a while. She will be going through a lot of emotions. She needs some space to process this as do you. For you both to come out of this ok you probably both do need some counselling, joint and individual. In our arrangement, yes, we are muddling along, it remains awkward when i go to my friends place, we are both not totally comfortable with it but am glad i have the oportunity to see if this feels right (which it does). Our arrangement is unique and not for everyone.

    When i start to feel guilty, i think if my husband was a gay man and he felt trapped in a straight marriage, the last thing i would want is for him to feel obligated to stay because that is not a partnership and in the end, the resentment would crush us both and any relationship that was left would be eroded away and the worst possible outcome. Maybe in time your wife will see this. I hope so for the sake of your son and you both. Unless she is completely heartless which i dont think she is, given how you have described her in previous posts, hopefully she will see the bigger picture which is that a happy you can be a better father and that you can still be parents even if you aren't together. Be as supportive as you can and let her be angry. This will pass if you can show her that you are still you, a nice man and loving father.

    Get lots of support and dont beat yourself up, although this is not easy. Keep moving forward, you are very brave.

    E

  21. Johnny_11
    Johnny_11 avatar
    28 posts
    8 November 2018

    Hey Creutz

    Hope things haven't been too stressful for you.... hope to hear from you soon.

    Cheers
    John

  22. Creutz
    Creutz avatar
    11 posts
    18 January 2019 in reply to Johnny_11

    Ok, a fair bit has happened since I last posted on here. Believe it or not, I'm now in a relationship with two people - my wife and my partner (male). Has this been an easy road? Certainly not. They have met each other a number of times, and I'm happy to say that they are quasi-friends. We had a pre-Christmas celebration together, spent New Years together and my wife has now even been to his apartment in Sydney for a visit. My male partner has even been spending a fair bit of time with my young 5 month old son, and I would go as far as saying that he loves my son. All sounds pretty good, right? Not really. It's actually been really hard. I'm so happy that everything is out in the open, but I have a terrible sense of this not working long term. I know that it wont. My wife is still completely in love with me, and is very dedicated to staying married even with the knowledge that I'm gay. She has said numerous times that she isn't going anywhere on her own accord ie. she would only leave the marriage if that's what I wanted. I also get the impression that my male partner isn't exactly comfortable with the way things are now, and based on some of his comments I'm thinking that he secretly hopes that I will divorce my wife sometime in the near future. He is also getting frustrated that our relationship is "hidden" from family and friends. How long will he put up with that? I think my wife has sensed this also, and is very uneasy. She's not herself, and sometimes isn't sleeping well, is sometimes depressed and worries about the future for us and our son. She doesn't see how this can work long term ie. what do we tell our son? Will it have a very negative impact on him? And as he gets older how do we explain this? He will tell family and friends about my male partner because kids have no filter. My wife also can't understand how I would want to spend weekends away from our son. It's true - I find it very very hard to be away from my son as I love him immensely.

    So why do I make my life so complicated? Because I love them both immensely and I feel as though losing either of them would absolutely kill me. But the guilt also kills me. The guilt of being away from my wife and son, and also the guilt of not being with my male partner. The idea of not seeing my son every day is just heart wrenching, if my marriage didn't work. Losing my beautiful house...

    The other day my wife said "How can you choose your sexuality over your wife and son"? Inspires so much guilt.

  23. Esti67
    Esti67 avatar
    77 posts
    24 January 2019 in reply to Creutz

    Hi Creutz,

    I'm glad you have posted an update. Like me, you're in a difficult situation. It's incredibly difficult because no one is completely happy. Some people can make it work but i unfortunately couldn't. I found maintaining 2 relationships emotionally and physically exhausting. I had to make a choice but i prefer to say not her over him but rather my overall happiness and authenticity over my safe straight life. I'm comparing this to your wife's statement " how can you choose your sexuality over your son" . I put identity on par with family in terms of importance but its come at a huge cost. I have decided to separate from my husband. He was willing to hang on at any cost but it was untenable and i had to call it. He has an appointment with a counselor thank god because I cannot take the endless workshopping. We told our adult kids over the weekend and my daughter is not happy. I hope in time she will get used to the new order. She is more upset that i am leaving ( only 5 minutes away in my own place). I think in time she will come around and I'm prepared to wait but being here is suffocating and its not a happy house. So, i take the leap of faith and hope things work out with my girl. We love eachother but its not without it's complications.

    I hope you are keeping well.

    E

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