Ok great options, I guess then see if she contacts again to try re negotiate ?

Yeh mate U77. You plan and prepare your strategy for your preferred options, and guess at her options too so you can plan some responses to those.

If I have been helpful and I hope I have, please know you are invited to express such thanks over in my anti-movement thread in the depression section. Don't feel obliged to read it all, but a "hello dng" or more personal words would be fantastic! Fair enough?

Of course I'll keep responding here for you too, U77. thx for helping me think these things through.

I will definatley have a look your help has been great

rhankyou

Morning dng

i got an email from the daughter saying mum isn't using a phone now because I sent her a message and how dare I say that I love and miss her while I'm off with other women since I left and left her life in a toilet.

i guess they aren't going to like my letter then, I also guess that could be my surley

U77, the really nice thing about what we have discussed is that you will take your new set of conditions for mutually beneficial relationship into your "potential" next relationships and be able to both more clearly see your needs under threat and negotiate to avoid that risk fairly, whether the new relationship is with HER or any other human.

So too relationships with ones kids, open their minds to negotiation and timefull caring and options, always presenting options to highlight choices.

Thanks dng

just struggling a bit today

Afternoon U77, struggle shows how much we are alive, at very least.

We have been texting this afternoon but it has all come back to how I wasn't honest with her and how much I destroyed her world

Ok, so her position is : U77 lied and destroyed world.

You have a prepared response for HER position about accusing you of lying.

Secondly the world is not destroyed, life goes on, SHE's trying to decrease your bargaining power with those statements.

She might be thinking like this : You destroyed my world, you should feel very bad, but you should take me back under my conditions because you made me feel bad and that would make me feel better.

Does that sound about right?

I destroyed her world because she is living in a homeless shelter and I'm not. I wasn't honest with her about speaking to other women when she was in hospital that I didn't even know about but she says we were together. She doesn't know if she even wants to try again. When I said I will leave her alone if she wasn't interested in me she said you always give up as soon as things get remotely hard.

then I made her feel dead inside I didn't give her complete loyalty or commitment.

U77. Break up all those sentences and have a think/feel about them. Deconstruction it's called.

Note the ingrained perception of lack of honesty, is that one of your deal breakers, or was that mine merely suggested?

Now she is pissed at me because I haven't told any of my family or friends that I want her back saying she isn't going to be my dirty secret.

Well I got my surely this morning dng she said she loves me but I can have her she will never trust me. She had a panic attack last night when I dozed off and didn't answer her text straight away and she doesn't want to feel that way any more.

I am heart broken

Unsure,

Not sure if this forum allows YT links but hearing this talk of game theory reminded me of a relevant thing that clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson said, that you can never win in an argument in an intimate relationship- if you win, your partner loses... and for someone you care about, you never want them to lose, period....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mvqhSTcwIOs

I understand that things are rocky and very uncertain for you at the moment, but if a relationship is a true reciprocal relationship (which many in this world are not), then your goal is not to win, negotiate as you would a business deal (negotiate, sure, but with the realisation that both people are flawed individuals), lay down the law and assert your dominance....

Not saying that you are doing any of this... I just think that the ideal is what’s best for both of you - which may mean lose-lose, as in the termination of the relationship, or it may mean lose-lose as in you both accept fault...

I get that you’re in a weird state of limbo at the moment and hurting though.... I think further down the road one would prefer to look back as having been a bit more accepting of someone who ultimately was not right, than having asserting their will over someone and wondered “what if ?.....

I was going to ask a while back something but then you and dng seemed to get on a roll.

What precipitated her thinking you were cheating? I believe you when you say you didn’t, but I wonder if you are close (in a non-romantic way) with the person she accused you of cheating with? Humans are designed to be sensitive to not just their relationship with another, but with that other’s relationship with others...

I hope this is sensitive enough as you are in a very - uncertain - time.. I get that there had been a lot of conflict with her accusations and disorder and medication adherence etc etc. so I hope this doesn’t come across as overly judgmental. My heart goes out to you.

ps if she calls you to hear your voice, talk to her... even if things don’t work out, she’s still a human being.

take care Unsure.

Back in October last year I was sending her a lot of messages wishing she was with me and my kids on holiday, her daughter went into labour premature(very premature) but any way I sent a lot of messages and on one of the days she told me to F off leave here alone don't contact me any more. I was upset angry all the emotions that go with being told that I contacted a person I was seeing before her and was texting her asked to see a explicit picture of her which I was told no and have never spoken to her since. The problem lies in that I kept sending my ex partner messages saying I loved her and I would wait for her. It took about 6 weeks to hear back from my ex partner, not that's an excuse for what it did. She questioned me about it and I denied it not remembering that I had even done that 6 months later. She had gone through my phone seen the old text messages and asked me about it, but not remembering doing it I denied it. You may ask why didn't you remembering it, I used to be a very heavy drinker until I January . (Still no excuse) but because I denied it for so long it drove my ex into a huge depression. We have spoken today and says she will never be able to get that out of her head thinking she was never good enough for me and why did I do that. She said today she loves me and wantse but could never trust me again. How do I In some way even get her to trust me again? Mistakes have been huge and it has killed us and me let alone destroyed her.

I forgot to emotion that in that period she was in hospital herself which I didn't know about wasn't told.

Sorry Unsure, just having difficulty following the people in this narrative. As I understand,

back in October you sent your now ex fiancée messages, when you were on holiday with your kids. ex fiancées daughter went into labour, you sent messages to which she eventually said F off. You then were upset and texted another woman you used to date asking for explicit picture and saying you loved her etc.

What did you mean by wait for her??

were you separated from your current ex fiancée when you were texting? Or not talking since she told you to F off?

Sorry I asked the lady I text for explicit pictures, while I was still telling my ex fiancé I loved her. I didn't hear from my ex fiancé for nearly 6 weeks when she told me to F off. When she found out I had text this other lady she said we were still together which I didn't think we were being told to F off. I continued to send my ex fiancé messages saying I will wait for her and I loved her over the 6 weeks I didn't hear from her not knowing if I ever would again.

Evening U77!

Sounds like a bit of a bomb shell hit there matey.

Did you go through ur situation think/feel options and responses again? Did it help?...

still here still reading.. love dng.

Hi dng

it sure did, she has since says she loves me and wants me but will never trust me. But she continues to message me which is great asking what I'm doing and who I'm with. Continues to say I need to move on find somebody else. So I'm very confused.

Confused again hey U77. right we at it again then...

bombshell update : SHE loves U77 despite distrust.

Messaging seeking info on what and who.

Speaking/verbalising? : > "move on to someone else". Thus confused!

******

Some opening positions for your options, not discounting any you've thought/felt about b4.

Love & distrust don't actually much go together in many people. Love is both Deep Trust and Shallow Trust. Trust that says, u can talk with other fems and I won't be jealous.

Trust that says, u can get hungry however you want, but you have to eat at home.

Trust that says, ... so u think about what Trust means to HER and YOU. Write em down please.

Options. Maybe she knows who u might move onto and knows they will give away your intentions to the other her.

Perhaps those two are cooperating either against you, or against each other or whatever, just might be something there I dk about.

Love is a great opening move and so is saying you are welcome to move on, those positions are in alignment. Yeh, because she might be saying, I love u so much, I can love u from afar and be happy u find someone other than me. That is one kind of true love.

Or she might be using them as the position, I love you, but I am hurt by what's happened so that love is turning bitter, I want to let it grow stale and diminish...

What do ya reckon?

It's definatley the last one dng, to start of with she did want to see me again, now it is bitter.

I am devastated that she is now homeless and with what's happened I have caused this, I feel terrible, broken

Ok U77. Love turned bitter, She homeless U devastated feel terrible n broken.

right we can work with that... smirk/lol.

Can you afford to help her homelessness somehow? Pay first month rent at new place? Or help with Bond?

Can you put Her in touch with local social services to assist Her with homelessness? Housing Trust is it called.

Would any of those help to revegetate your devastated field?

What exactly are you terrible/terror of?

Broken stuff mends, which bits n pieces will one re-solidify?

But also remember the anti-trust, always consider if/ how much Olive branch to extend. Fair restoration, not too much, not too little, maybe something u both content with, or both unhappy with. idk.

As for asking for intimate photos of otherfem during the 6 week "fight/break". Well have u addressed it directly with HER? Does she thinks it truly weakens ur position? Who can say, do u think it weakens ur position?

But so far, I think u77 is assured of connection with kids, and that's a big deal!

dng.

The photos have been addressed but it took me a long time to do it and it was after she had found out herself.

Ok, I suggest u77 aims to address potential future issues, prior to Her getting freaked out.

U77 may want to anticipate stuff to reduce stress in a fairly nice way.

Well dng it was looking like we were getting back together, but then I could only see my kids on weekends without the eldest boyfriend, them I said what about seeing my parents for an hr once a week or fortnight and she said no, no compromise. As my mum has said something previously which really upset her. My kids want to stay with me for two weeks at a time how do I tell them I can only see them on weekends. She is very ill on top of her other illness. So it got so far and very close and that's it done like that.

Hi u77. Good luck mate.

I personally would not accept being denied right to see my own parents, no matter what had happened between her and them.

It would be reasonable, in my opinion for HER not to see them if she so chooses, but it is not reasonable for her to deny you seeing them.

As for your kids - well mate, seeing your kids is one of your permanent positions, a deal breaker if not met.

Re 2 week visits. Whose house is it? What are the other options? Can the kids be put up in a local hotel? Explore means of meeting Her request, but don't simply just accept discontinuation of contact with your kids!

My kids want to spend 2 weeks with me but she only wants to do weekends with them. I haven't even told the kids that I have been speaking to her again. They might say that they want nothing to do with her

I advise u tell the kids and ask them what they think/feel about the situation.

Set boundaries for both kids and Her, if it's your house you have the lead position to lead for fair negotiation.

Maybe She goes away for weekends when kids come.

Maybe kids only come for 2 weeks, when She goes on holiday or sees other friends away.

Maybe kids come for visit in morning when She out having coffee with friends.

Ya follow me? You are a leader, communicate with everyone fairly and negotiate boundaries fairly! You got this.

dng

Well it's done as she isn't interested in me seeing my parents for 1 hr a week until I work on her first and when she is comfortable, so I said I can't do that. And she said goodbye