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Forums / Relationship and family issues / They just wont understand, why?

Topic: They just wont understand, why?

  1. Sleepy21
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    24 December 2020 in reply to randomx

    hi rx you're right... so many ppl are so busy and i don't think we see the hidden stresses they have

    mortages...kids...

    i'm sorry you didn't get much family support when u went through ur divorce. That's not nice and sadly so common

    Don't know why that is. Some ppl seem to have no room to hear another's struggle. I have listened to my friends through their divorces. Usually I was relieved when they finally seperated... it is okay to walk away when so unhappy.

    I used to date a lot and tell my married friends about it but haven't done so for a few years. My married friends were interested and loved the dating stories. Reliving their single years lol.

    But yes with MH I try so hard not to drain ppl because I know it can be like that... i want to be still a friend outside rom MH related and PTSD issues i have

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  2. white knight
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    24 December 2020 in reply to ecomama
    Hi everyone,

    Reading the last 3 posts reminded me why I wrote the threads "fortress of survival" (also part 2).

    The fact is, being highly sensitive I realised about 20 years ago that street wisdom was missing in me. This regardless of working in jails and law enforcement work. Immaturity then played a part.

    So, to counter those domineering, narcissistic types I had to develop my own fortress. No longer would I allow immediate entry of strangers into my life. I'd have a "peep hole" at the door, then if they're lucky I'd get them to the foyer, maybe the lounge but it would be a long time before they'd get to the tower den if ever. All the while the trap door was reading if they violated my fragile feelings.

    Also in the thread "supermarket shelves" where you can't buy patience you cannot also buy a desensitized machine, we can't "toughen up" we can't "slow down" we are whom we are and to he'll with those that insist we change.

    I won't change because I can't do strangers comply, make some considerations for my conditions and I'll hug you, be gentle and I'll praise you and... adjust yourself to be tender when I'm in dark places and I'll walk with you through any trauma that arrives at your door.

    TonyWK
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  3. ecomama
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    24 December 2020 in reply to white knight

    Dear Tony WK

    You craft your words so beautifully. Those brought tears to my eyes, esp saying you won't expect someone to change.

    I'm really hurt about my BF getting angry with me after I got the most triggering of letters from ex m-i-l.

    BF told me how to think, what to think, what to do, even to pretend I never got it.... Like he was trying to program me, like he does the instruments he works on as an engineer.

    I'm a HUMAN BEING I kept telling him. Not a machine.

    I was present with him ALL week, being extremely emotional and I just listened, told him I Loved him and listened some more... all week. No angry words. Just holding presence with him.

    One thing today for me and he was all out SHUT THAT DOWN.

    I think HE triggered childhood stuff even saying all the stuff he said.
    When my mother hurt me she told me not to cry.

    I was hurt and needed to cry today.

    Now I allow myself to cry.

    I'm human.

    Others around me expect me NOT to be.

    EMxxxx

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  4. randomx
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    24 December 2020 in reply to white knight

    Hiya sleepy.

    Yeah l've thought a lot about that period in that way especially from families lack of. Some are just like that l'd expect no more from them but some of the others have had soooo much to deal with over the yrs themselves too but there was def' some running for the hills going on too. Good old family.

    But yeah we do have to be careful of not draining those that do during rough times too.

    People have to earn it with me too Tony , l've always known too that l have the bigger heart, the awareness and feel of those l thought friends but sadly realized a long time ago that that was also my undoing. I've wondered the last few yrs has it become the Australian way to say no and walk away , or has it just become the necessity in self preservation , for me the latter l'm afraid. As my ex use to say, we must choose my battles wisely.

    rx

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  5. white knight
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    24 December 2020 in reply to randomx
    Hi EM

    My daughter use to teach. I said I love teachers...as long as they don't teach me. When she'd leave school each afternoon she'd t sake the classroom with her.

    I used to say to an ex girlfriend "is prefer it if you never began a sentence with "don't" or "darling"

    These are indeed triggers. Childhood or young abusive spouses he'll bent on control and intimidation. Well eventually for me it was implement change or perish.

    Rd
    Self preservation is a choice, if we don't make that our priority then we are placing others above our own needs font you think?

    TonyWK



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  6. randomx
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    24 December 2020 in reply to white knight

    Yeah that's true , it's a choice l had to make too but it's taken lots of practice since l must admit. l still hate sounding shallow or unnoticing when l do have to choose with someone now too , and that they think they've fallen onto deaf ears. Or that l have no clue what they might be saying , because l very much will , more than most or often that they could even imagine. But that's actually one of the other big reasons l must decide at the time.

    rx

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  7. Jstar49
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    27 December 2020 in reply to ecomama

    Em,

    I totally get that you felt let down by your BF.

    I am constantly reminding my H to SUPPORT me, not to just have his own reaction when I've got stuff going on. I mean, I know it affects him to, but it's primarily affecting me, and I see it as his job to at least touch base with me about how I am, before ranting about what he thinks. And trying to fix it! GRRR! He tells both me and D 'you should have said this' and more in the same vein. It absolutely shuts me down!

    I'm getting better at pulling him up and saying hang on, this isn't about you, how about putting yourself in my shoes for a minute, and Listening to how I'm feeling about it all.

    WIP ( work in progress) and us girls have got the head start on this one, or so my couples counsellors tell us.

    Em, I noticed music refs on another thread- chilli peppers and nirvana also on my playlists lol! Some Christian songs- not too sappy tho. :) When I'm on my own I can listen to different music than when trying to have conversations....

    J*

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  8. Jstar49
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    27 December 2020 in reply to Sleepy21

    Hi Sleepy,

    Curious if you've seen /enjoyed the movie Betty Blue...? Music soundtrack available too. Very melancholic and sublime. I might need to watch it again tonite I think.

    There is something delicious about melancholy. It can be a trap tho - like quicksand- suck you in and you can't get out. I might have to line up a comedy for after Betty blue.Get the endorphins pumping again. It's the things I need to do that often feel the hardest.

    As far as the convo goes about supporting others- Yes! Perhaps thats why these forums work well, because there is a wide variety of ppl who comment, and no obligation. I love the idea of community, but in any group of ppl there will be some who take advantage, and some who feel no 'mutual obligation' and some who try to take care of others to their own detriment. My mother is one of the latter, and coincidentally, my sister is one of the first sort and sucks her pretty much dry.

    It's tough to walk the middle path.

    Hence self care and boundaries I guess.

    Tony I also love Cat Stevens 'Father and son'- classic melancholy!

    I'm reminded of David playing music to King Saul. Music calms the savage beast.

    Love

    J*

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  9. Sleepy21
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    29 December 2020 in reply to Jstar49

    Hey Jstar... this is the third time I've been recommended Betty Blue wow... i must really see this one. Ppl love it. And rave about it :) I havnen't seen it for that reason - I think at the time I was very sensitive about watching something sad.. but there is sad that is just depressing and there is sad that has a cathartic element to it...

    The dynamic between ur mother and sister sounds familiar to me. Ur right there are all kinds...

    I have read recently about a concept called "love bombing" where someone overloads u with affection to get u on side... there is grief for me in seeing so clearly now many of the dynamics i didn't see before

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  10. Jstar49
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    30 December 2020 in reply to Sleepy21

    Hi Sleepy, I had to look back to see why I thought of Betty Blue for you- it's the music! The soundtrack is a bit eclectic, but has one of the most sublimely melancholic and beautiful tracks....If you have spotify you can listen to it I think. Also spotify premium is having a 3 mth free trial atm- I just signed up so I can take my music away with me when I travel for a couple days with my youngest d, as I'll probably leave the laptop for my partner. Heaps of audio books all loaded and ready to go!

    I don't really like travelling much- leaving my kitchen lol! But I shall do it!

    How are you doin, beautiful sleepy-girl?

    Cheers,

    J*

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  11. Sleepy21
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    30 December 2020 in reply to Jstar49

    hi J

    I'm a bit anxious about not sleeping, but I've enjoyed a pretty good day today overall - so that's good :)

    how are u....

    We connected here about music! I like blues and I love poetic lyrics like Leonard Cohen, Nick Cave and the King of melancholy - Tom Waits.

    What music have you been listening to?

    The melancholic soundtrack on Betty Blue sounds really appealing to me---do u think it's a movie where u cry? I love those movies lol. Crying through a movie is very cathartic to me..

    I didn't know Spotify gave 3 free months - that is ages!! Great deal. I'm happy you've got all that music now, that will be nice

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  12. Sleepy21
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    31 December 2020 in reply to Sleepy21

    hi all

    having been thinking about narcissists... those i've known who routinely do damage and harm carelessly and with no regard or empathy...

    the common theme i saw when i remembered them was a certain kind of childishness - maybe immaturity - although they may have been a smart person, even an intellectual, when it came to getting what they want and how they talked about it - or how they discussed relationships, there was something so immature and silly

    They often sounded very babyish almost in how they conceived things. I think it is a part of being emotionally stunted. If you are constantly taking from ppl - then running - without ever having any intimacy or responsibility for the reprecussions - you never really learn.... I don't know if anyone else can relate this to the narcissists they have met... just my own personal obversation but I'm still very new to this.

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  13. randomx
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    31 December 2020 in reply to Sleepy21

    Eh sleepy.

    1st up you got yourself some not bad tastes in music there girl , but sorry, l've gotta switch kings to nick cave . Don't know if l've ever known a true narc l've never studied narc and l don't like all the labels thrown all over the net these days by anyone and everyone, Seems someone burps and their a narc these days according to most forums but no l don't mean bb people here are actually educated in mental illness . Although l have known a few AH's which seems to be more like what most of the aboves are really just dealing with..

    So it's interesting to read what you've said b l'm thinking of my daughters now ex bf . Because he was all personality in public but something very very serious went on away from it , we're just not sure exactly what .

    As you know l suspected my ex was bpd , but l'm not sure of the differences and l've never known for sure if she was she'd never see someone so l really hate even using the bpd tbh. But a psychiatrist friend did say that she def sounded it but without proper sit down with her that wasn't a diagnoses, But at anyrate , yeah interesting what you said about narcs because in ways that sounds a bit like d's bf and l think l might do some reading up . Although he always seemed like a very nice guy on the surface, l saw things that just didn't sit right and l'd like to delve a little.But just thank the Gods they broke up is all l can say.

    rx

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  14. Sleepy21
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    31 December 2020 in reply to randomx

    Hi that's true - I love Nick Cave!!! Was listening to Leonard today - great!!

    I was exactly exactly cant even describe it of same opinion of u

    i felt that ppl are too quick to talk about narcissists and sociopaths whenever anyone was mean

    i avoided ever learning about the whole thing coz it was too much

    but when a therapist told me that she thought soeone i'd been involved with was narcissitic i did begin thinking about it - and i like learning about it a bit

    Helps me reframe. Only good if it helps... otherwise i guess it's just waste of time like ppl say Megan Markle is a narcissist.... someone they know nearly nothing about and have never met!

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  15. Guest909
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    1 January 2021 in reply to Sleepy21

    Hi Sleepy

    An astute observation that is consistent with my experience.

    Some time back, my ex threatened me with a DVO and called the police. Two police officers (M/F) arrived at the house, talked to my ex and I, and then left without incident.

    That evening, I went down to the local police station to get a copy of the police report. I spoke to one of the female officers that attend the callout, and asked how I could get a copy of the police report. She told me that there was no report because there was no incident and nothing to report. The police woman then went on to say, that my ex was "clearly the aggressor" and that her allegations were "childish" - her words.

    I didn't think much of this at the time, but your post brought it all back. This type of behavior certainly fits into the bag of narcissistic traits.

    Cheers

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  16. Sleepy21
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    1 January 2021 in reply to Guest909

    Hi Mr Paul I'm sorry if that triggered anything - really sorry.

    Just something I've noticed as I'm watching these youtube videos with psychologists on the topic.
    I try and notice features i've found common to these people which at the time felt a bit out of place. Eg someone even very intelligent and in one case a medical professional - became very vengeful, childish etc.

    It seemed a little bit off at the time but I didn't understand it.

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  17. randomx
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    1 January 2021 in reply to Sleepy21

    Yeah , some of the pettiest minds l've ever come across have been in so called educated people, Educated isn't always one and the same as any real intelligence , nor well written or spoken. Things like that can often have one side of the picture but be extremely lacking from the other side.

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  18. Sleepy21
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    1 January 2021 in reply to randomx

    Hi Rx true,

    basic life skills are sometimes absent and even basic empathy - i used to wrongly fall in to the trap of thinking educated meant wise

  19. Guest909
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    1 January 2021 in reply to Sleepy21

    Hi Sleepy

    All is good, I don't have any problems with triggers; I'm very fortunate in that respect.

    There are many forms of intelligence, most sources list eight types; there may be more:

    1. Linguistic intelligence (“word smart”)
    2. Logical-mathematical intelligence (“number/reasoning smart”)
    3. Spatial intelligence (“picture smart”)
    4. Bodily-Kinesthetic intelligence (“body smart”)
    5. Musical intelligence (“music smart”)
    6. Interpersonal intelligence (“people smart”)
    7. Intrapersonal intelligence (“self smart”)
    8. Naturalist intelligence (“nature smart”)

    My ex, for example, was well below average on most measures of intelligence, but that does not mean she was stupid. I say that because her "interpersonal intelligence (6)" was off the scale. She could walk into to a room full of supreme court judges, and feel right at time. Similarly, she could walk into a room full of drunks, and also feel right at home.

    A phycologist recently told me that high "interpersonal intelligence" this not uncommon with "chameleon personalities". Chameleon personalities are often a part of NPD and BPD.

    randomx

    You are correct, educated does not mean wise. They are two different animals.

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  20. randomx
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    1 January 2021 in reply to Guest909

    Hi Mr Paul , nah sleepy mentioned wise l wasn't referring to that area different thing again as is any form of real awareness l've found also very lacking so yeah they are others to the list though.

    Known a few people like your ex , might even be considered a bit slower than some but those considering that are usually too lacking to see that between the lines she's actually smarter than most in many any real sense.

    lt's a fascinating area in people observation though isn't it and right when you think you've seen it all, look out .

    Ps , l also notice many so called intelligent people pick up on really silly totally irrelevant things but totally miss the real stuff.

    rx

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  21. Guest909
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    1 January 2021 in reply to randomx

    When it comes to intelligence, we each have our strengths and weaknesses. I think the "awareness" you are talking about is part of "intrapersonal intelligence (7)" - one of the eight forms of intelligence. Some have it, some don't; that's just a part of the tapestry of life.

    Known a few people like your ex , might even be considered a bit slower than some but those considering that are usually too lacking to see that between the lines she's actually smarter than most in many any real sense.

    You are 100% correct, in her area of expertise, she is extremely smart. Much smarter than me, that is for sure.

    l also notice many so called intelligent people pick up on really silly totally irrelevant things but totally miss the real stuff.

    I guess that is because we all have our strengths and weaknesses. We all have a different idea, or perception of what the "real stuff" is. One man's trash, is another man's treasure. The real stuff will depend on each person's point of view.

    Little in this world is black and white; just shades of grey. That what makes it interesting, frustrating and unpredictable.

    Paul

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  22. randomx
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    1 January 2021 in reply to Guest909

    lt's always gob smacking how so many counselors will literally need the writing all over the wall in big block letters before they grasp even part of what your saying.

    l obviously expect too much but someone in those fields should if anything have a natural and way above typical awareness and perception .

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  23. Sleepy21
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    1 January 2021 in reply to randomx

    some counsellors i feel just don't have the personality for it

    studying and practise are so different

    how can u be a therapist/support without empathy?

    And yet i've had a doctor who had no empathy. Also so petty lol

    When I said that I was thinking I benefit more from being out in nature, walking, then sitting in the stuffy office talking abot my problems, he had a hissy fit and said then why don't i just leave right now and go for a walk instead of wasting his time.
    lol.

    Ego.

    Empathy for a vulnerable person is crucial.

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  24. randomx
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    1 January 2021 in reply to randomx

    lt's funny , and irritating , in sales. l'm not a salesman but unfortunately it is a small part of my job though none the less , the part l really don't like either , nother story.

    But 9.9% of the time you know who's gonna buy who's gonna be impossible who's gonna waste a lot of your time on petty bs , you know what they're gonna say n ask , you know what they're buying style if they are a buyer and bargaining will be. But in most cases in my business you still have to go through the motions , because every now and then one of those will turn around and actually buy, in the end. So you have to bother with their emails and texts and repeated questions with spelt out answers 10x and deal with all their caution and worries. You know the ones that will text you 5 or 10 times later while finally on their way out here to look at the job and the ones that will just be bang , they're here , and you'll be doing the deal.

    You feel like saying to the others look l know what you'll ask how much of my time you'll waste and that you probably won't even come out anyway let alone buy after messing me around for a wk and you''ll just worry yourself out of the deal . Had exactly one of those just tonight actually.

    You'll see the look in the odd RE agent or car salesmen now and then , and they'll be right , l will only be tyre or brick kickin at the time. But every now and then you'll meet one that picks it in the first second , the rest will waste their time trying to sell you something.

    Funny old world the world of people isn't it. Thank the Gods though l only sell 5 or 6 times a yr now these days.

    rx

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  25. white knight
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    1 January 2021 in reply to Sleepy21
    Imo counsellors and many other profesdions, you only attend to receive the knowledge they have learned through the education they obtained to get them there. Anything beyond that is a bonus.

    I had a GP in 1984 that fancied himself for his therapeutic abilities. He was robotic, cold and had zero people skills.. his only benefit to me was what he learned in uni.

    An occupational therapist in 1987 changed the way I thought. My behaviour was extreme in some areas- he tamed that. He had the character and fortitude to correct, guide, care and nurture me until we parted 12 months later. Such people I remember their names other are just figurehead that skills don't cut the mustard.

    Hence I promote changing therapists whenever you want.

    TonyWK
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  26. randomx
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    1 January 2021 in reply to randomx

    Ahh sleepy , it also may not have been a real choice moment to admit that one either especially with him , but the end result would've been the same anyway l guess.

    When l was going through divorce most doctors were useless unless l was physically sick. when people suggest talk to your gp it really depends on how good the gp actually is and a special one will take some digging to find. l really don't think most of them wanna get into the other side of things just wanna throw you a script and get you out there for the next one.

    Your exactly right , unfortunately yeah anyone can do the courses but a very rare few actually have any heart for it , feel , or natural ability .

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  27. randomx
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    1 January 2021 in reply to randomx

    Yeah , it's pretty sad tony when they just repeat their books and line parrot fashion l feel like sayin can't we skip the bs you gonna actually help me out here or what.

    Speaking of empathy though l do try to be a little grateful even if l'm thinking how useless they were as l'm already presaying in my head what they're gonna be saying next. But bc really , what a hard job , don't you think ? lt's draining and hard enough helping one person you care for , but imagine having to listen to it and trying to help all day long with dozens of total strangers .

    l also found one like him Tony , an older German man. The most gifted counselor l've ever come across in my life . Unfortunately we only managed two sessions and he was transferred, l'll never forget our talks though.

    rx

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  28. randomx
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    3 January 2021 in reply to randomx

    PS.

    For what it's worth too, sorry btw way if l've sounded as if l think all highly educated people are this or that bc no not at all, l've really admired and liked for all kinds of reasons some that l've met . But all l was getting at is that l've also just noticed too that with others, it dosn't always mean that much in some.

    rx

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  29. Sleepy21
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    3 January 2021 in reply to white knight

    hi Tony

    i've seen robotic therapists as well

    I agree ppl should change therapists whenever you want... and not feel bad.
    I thin we should hold standards for them.... and if they breach a boundary or fail in a standard - routinely or repeatedly - ask if they are the right fit.

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  30. Sleepy21
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    3 January 2021 in reply to randomx

    Hi rx you make a good point

    it's good to respect education but not worship it - and to look at what someone does more beyond the degrees behind them. Also... intuition. I think to be a caring health professional there must be some human touch and uderstanding - maybe like that lovely older therapist you had.
    The best ones I think you could also imagine having a conversation with -

    like i picture these robotic style therapists etc in any other situation other than a therapy room and i cannot imagine them even functioning. Some were very severe, impersonal. No human reactions. No laughter. No smiling.
    I also saw a therapist/social worker once who used to sometimes tell me about himself, but in a therapuetic way. He told me how he'd hurt his back and had regret and irritation about that his whole life. He talked about not liking it, but having to accept it. It was a powerful message for me. I didn't feel it was inappropriate sharing, it had a therapeutic benefit.
    Then there was one who literally told me her whole dating history.
    No therapeutic benefit, and also, bit weird

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