Hi Daniel

It can be so hard to not let certain internal dialogue get in the way of what you want to say. I think, for me, the internal dialogue changed along the way, thanks to a number of revelations. One of those, 'Everyone has their own version of inner sanity. What may appear as a perfect form of inner sanity to one person (regarding their perspective and beliefs) can appear as insane to another'. it's a matter of opinion. You might be convinced by others that being so quite at first is kinda crazy or boring but, in my opinion, it's perfectly sane. It makes sense. You could argue, on the other hand, that to talk and talk and never listen is a little crazy.

Another revelation which came to me: We don't have to necessarily dive into intellectual conversation with a person, which reflects our level of knowledge and experience or lack of it. A healthy sense of wonder can be enough at times. Take politics, for example. Personally, I find politics to be a little boring and triggering but that's just me :) Btw, I've been called crazy for having such little interest. Say someone mentions the economic state of the country. What may come to mind is 'How would this person (who's speaking) improve the economy?' Simply ask them. Ask 'What are some of the ways in which you'd make constructive changes?' They might mention a lot of different ways which could lead you to wonder why they haven't included a significant aspect within their consideration. Again, ask until they've satisfied your sense of wonder. As I've hinted at, people can be insane so it pays to expect some insanity, especially when it comes to politics. They may attack you over your questioning, 'Look, you don't know what you're talking about! What you say doesn't really factor in'. You think 'Of course it factors in'. Whether you want to say that out loud or perhaps instead say 'I'm just basically wondering, no need to get upset', either way, you may trigger that person to greater agitation. You can sit back and observe them go on some closed minded insane rant or not. Moving away from fearing people's reaction is a natural self-esteem booster.

 Perhaps you're a catalyst for greater consciousness amongst others and you just don't know it yet :)

Hi therising

Firstly, thank you for all your kind words of advice and support I am very appreciative and it’s nice to bounce thoughts off someone, the things you have mentioned have definitely struck a cord in a good way!

I guess I’m trying to find answers to why I feel so deflated and I want to more forward and try to enjoy things again just confused as to where to start.

I may have asked this question previously so forgive me if I have but when you started coming out of your depression where/what did you start to do practically to get enjoyment back as I find things I usually enjoy have become tiresome and I don’t have the same enjoyment out of my life because of racing thoughts that I’m not worth much and I’m ashamed of feeling that way. I guess I don’t really know how to start to relax again and get enjoy back if that makes sense

Thanks again

Daniel

WoW, reading this whole thread has been amazing. You have received so many kind and uplifting replies. I have no idea what I could ever say to top any of that. But I am feeling so much similar to yourself Daniel. Lockdowns have exacerbated my mental health and loneliness. Even now things are somewhat "normal" again, it still feels so strange and where does one restart?! When the rising mentioned the habits we form, that's so true. All these new habits are very unhelpful for the journey back to "normal" haha. I myself suffer with several disorders that have me in and out of depressions. Since the last few lockdowns I have fallen back into agoraphobic ways and exacerbating my suicidal depressive states. In these times I do find reaching out on forums like this helpful to know we are definitely not alone. Social media most days make me feel extremely worthless and lonely. Reminding me how "unsocial" i am, due mainly to my complex ptsd. I have had times off social media to focus on myself, as I am this point in time especially as things open and people posting "friend gatherings" etc. Finding the things that help our depression is an ever evolving learning curve. What helps me today doesnt always seem to help me tomorrow and so on. Plans A-Z on repeat lol. Have you found any/many ways that have been helping you? Have you been able to make some friends to bounce off yet? Or just these forums? I love learning what helps others and new things to try, that may help me also. Hope to chat more (but my inner worthless self says I aint worth anyones time... oh the depressive joys) if not, i hope you find your happy. Who knows, may bump into one day in this vast city of Melbourne haha.

TC, Renee

Hi Daniel

I was talking to someone just the other day about this sense of 'stuckness'. As Mishmo touched on, the effects of lockdowns have brought about new challenges in relation to managing familiar mental health issues. To some degree, I've been able to make some sense of the effects of lockdowns in Melbourne but not entirely. This kind of leaves one stuck in not being entirely sure how to move forward.

I'm going back a bit when I think about coming out of my years in depression. For me, it was dramatic, a very sudden shift triggered by a thought while in depression group therapy, 'If I am not my depression (that lack of energy, lack of positive perspective, lack of happiness and so on) then who am I?' The same can be said for other things too, 'If I am not my anxiety then who am I? If I am not my fears, my long held beliefs, my insecurities or my sadness then who am I without all these things?' Sounds simplistic perhaps but it's hard to know until you work to find out. I've found it's the hard work that's the greatest challenge of all sometimes. The hard work can sometimes be stressful, time consuming and even confusing on occasion (with us trying to make sense of change) but it's still progress. Another way to phrase all this is, for example, 'I am so much more than my fears or my sadness'.

The 'Who am I?' question invites reality shifts. I find reality shifts are the key to progress. One thing that remains constant is the fact that if I'm not going to change my ways, my reality (perception or perspective) will remain the same. For example, if I remain in the armchair day after day watching Netflix while binge eating, that is my reality, it's depressing. On the other hand, if I commit to the treadmill beside that chair while working up levels of energy within me, then this becomes my reality. I become energetic and feel more connected to life. If I was to experience hopelessness while gaining no answers from mainstream medicine, in regard to a particular issue, my reality is one of hopelessness. If I gained answers and greater wellbeing from a more holistic approach, then my reality suddenly shifts.

It can feel somewhat depressing when there's a lack of vision in relation to a clear way forward. Stretching/exercising imagination becomes so incredibly important for strengthening vision. 'Exercise, exercise, exercise' is a constructive mantra for clearer vision.

Hi Mishmo

Thanks for replying and firstly you're definitely worth people's time and am happy to chat through it!

I definitely can relate to feelings of being unnatural and sort of fearful of being out in social places. I think social media also exacerbates my problem as well definitely and it's good that you have been able to take breaks from it because it's productive I find.

My issues most likely run deeper than just these lockdowns but what I think has happened is feelings that I would usually do my best to suppress and squash have just taken over throughout the lockdowns and I have sort of stepped back and looked at my life and just panicked and incessantly thought about what's wrong with me compared to others and it's created mass confusion in my head to a point where I feel completely worthless and suffocated. I think I have always had these insecurities since childhood as I never felt I fit in with a group etc but lockdowns have had a good ability to make these feelings rear their head in a way that unbearable.

In terms of ways I have been trying to help myself, this forum has been quite helpful as I am someone who struggles to articulate my thoughts to people as I fear judgement because I feel in my head the things that have made me feel this depression might be seen as silly or insignificant. This forum has been good to bounce ideas off some well-informed, open minded and intelligent people who have their own experiences and can offer words of advice on how to handle things.

I try to exercise, mainly run a lot, to clear my mind which I think is at least one productive thing I do consistently, I have tired a lot during lockdown to try and fight this mindset and give my head a rest but I understand what you mean when you say something that works one day doesn't the next.I have booked in to speak to someone professional so I guess thats a start.

In terms of friends to bounce things off I guess I don't feel comfortable and because I have these feelings of not really fitting in I fear I will be judged so I keep things to myself. I think therising has made some great points previously about finding similar types of people to myself as I feel I'm surrounded by those that are a lot more extroverted than myself and it's almost an expectation I am the same so I guess I need to starting trying to find people that are like minded.

I wish you all the luck and health possible and you are definitely never alone!

Thanks

Daniel

Hi therising

I definitely feel a great pressure on my shoulders now lockdown is ended to just flick a switch and enjoy my life as a 25 year old like those around me are doing and saying that I should but its a greater struggle than I have really faced at the moment. One the one hand I want to be out and enjoy myself but then I am plagued by things like I am still single at 25 and all my family members have partners and friends and it sort of like I have no one to spend time with which feeds into the whole depression then couple this with feelings of uncertainty on how I should act or not being able to let go and be comfortable in who I am and forget anxieties it has been exhausting for me mentally and by the end of the week I am wrecked,

I hope to have a similar shift to what you have described and I am trying really hard to battle through this and find ways I can be comfortable in who I am and actually understand who I am. If I understand correctly from what you are saying I guess I need to flip the script a bit and try to unlock more positive thoughts from not just for example sitting around watching Netflix etc like you mentioned because it is that type of situation that where my mind begins to run riot and then spiral is quick and I go down completely when it starts.

I think also trying to date whilst I am like this is pretty challenging as I actually find myself getting lost in my head when I with someone and its like I am there but not there for brief moments, I don't want the search for a partner to define me but at the same time I am pretty lonely at the moment so I am not really sure how best to go about it as I probably can be accused of being a bit rigid given my old fashioned family where the expectation is to find a partner and get married by certain ages and the pressure is becoming too much

Thanks again for your help

Daniel

Hi Daniel

I believe just about nothing gets us thinking more than expectations. Whether it involves the expectations we put on our self or others put on us, the amount of mental processing we do in regard to them can be enormous and time consuming.

Can't recall whether I've mentioned it before (have a shocking memory at times) but how I define 'disappointment' plays a big part when it comes to expectations. I'm big on playing around with words and redefining them to suit me, my mental health and perspective. While words can be depressing, they can also be inspiring with a little tweaking here and there :)

I used to consider 'disappointment' to mean being let down until I thought 'There has to be more to it than that. How can something so impacting at times be defined so simply?' Then I thought about it. I suppose I was first triggered to consider the amount of disappointment I experienced when it came to a few key people in my life. What was I really disappointed over? Then it clicked. I'd appointed them certain roles to play in my life and they continued to dis-appoint themselves from these roles over and over again. So, what I was feeling was them continuously disappointing themselves from who I wished they'd be. This didn't mean they couldn't change somewhere down the track but, for now, I had to stop giving them roles they simply weren't going to fill or act out. Then I came to realise there were roles I was giving myself that were unrealistic. I was continuously dis-appointing myself in some ways.

While you could say you wish to appoint yourself 'He who evolves into a social butterfly in an instant', a far more realistic role to work with is 'He who evolves gradually, socially' or 'He who graduates through a variety of social experiences'.

Given my parents weren't socialites, I was never conditioned to find social settings easy. I had to work at them and still do to some degree. I'd regard myself as somewhat 'socially dysfunctional' around folk I'm not entirely at ease with but that doesn't mean I can't admire myself for working hard to gradually change that. My greatest test has involved sit down dinners on a large scale, such as with the awards nights my husband used to take me to for his work. Sitting down with genuinely nice people for a good couple of hours and not being able to hold an engaging conversation is definitely a test. They're the sort of tests we pass Daniel, maybe not brilliantly but we do pass them as we evolve beyond them :)

Hi therising

I think you make a very good point about the roles we appoint people and feeling let down as I feel I have felt let down a number of times from friends of mine probably because I may hold them to the same standard that I hold myself which is probably unrealistic. I would like to think I am a nice person to all I come in contact with and have grown up with what I believe to be a high moral compass and in a way this can be a burden as I feel let down when people don't act in the same way toward me as I do to them.

I think the pressure on myself is the greater issue as I struggle to really relax expectations, partly because I see things happening around me and I feel I am stagnating when I shouldn't be as the search for a partner has been tiresome, emotionally draining and a real test of my self-esteem. I really want to relax in who I am and not question whether the same I am is right or whether it is weird to other people or not "fun" or boring I am struggling to really manage this problem and it sends me into days on end of depression.

A classic example again was yesterday afternoon, I was at a close friends brothers birthday at like a function place. I only knew my friend and his sister out of a hall of about 50 odd people. Since talking with you I have really made an effort to understand what I am, I would say I am initially introverted (particularly in settings where I am unfamiliar) but when I am comfortable and with those that know me my quirky sides come out and I feel I can thrive. I have always struggled with the internal battle in situations like yesterday where I know I have an engaging side but because I am more an introverted/quiet character I feel like in groups like this I am seen as boring or too quiet/shy and I see people around the room that seem a lot more out there and people are highly engaged by them that it deflates me that why can't I do this around people I don't know and not be seen as quiet/boring/shy.

I try to tell myself it's normal in a room of people you don't know and everyone else knows each other but I feel overwhelming pressure that me being more laidback and not extroverted enough is what is hindering me from meeting a potential partner and that I am misunderstood and seen as boring or just too plain and nice.

Thanks again

Daniel

Wow yes, booked into seeing a professional is an amazing start. Go you!

I can relate well with your social and emotional feels. I too am very much the same. Introverted extrovert some say. To those I am not 'close' to I seem shy, maybe sometimes rude cause I am not chatty. But its mainly because I am overly protective to being hurt, used and misunderstood. Once someone pushes past this for me, they see me for who I really am. But then I constantly am waiting for the ending so to speak (they leave, they get annoyed, they got what they wanted etc). It feels like a never ending spiral at times and I become more introverted. My psychologist has suggested for me to try befriend more people like myself, finding truly like minded people, rather then ones who dont fully understand. I have joined some community social groups for depression/anxiety etc. See how I go in connecting with people with similar inner feels and fears. Will be interesting. First ones tomorrow... see how it goes.

How was the birthday party? Did you get to spend time with your friend and their sister? How did you feel in yourself afterwards? You did amazing in attending might I say. Thats always a step in the right direction in meeting new people.

I hope you find the answers you are looking for. So glad you have continued here on the forum. So many people with great ideas and suggestions. Feeling lost or confused in any parts of our life is never fun. I wish you the best of luck too, and hope the specialist appointment goes well. Hope to talk more soon. Thanks for listening also. Take care :)

Hi Daniel

I have to agree with Mishmo in saying that you were amazing in attending that party. It would have been easy to not go and play it safe. I hope you can honestly say you amazed yourself in how you managed to go.

I think we can easily lose sight of how amazing we are at times, which is a shame. If you can substitute 'I surprise myself' with 'I amaze myself', it can be highly productive. So, you can amaze yourself by going to a party where you imagine yourself being uncomfortable. You possibly amazed yourself the first time you came on the forums here, something you may have once never considered. I imagine there was the odd test or exam here and there throughout your schooling where you amazed yourself by getting better marks than what you expected. If I triggered you to consider all the times where you amazed yourself throughout your life so far, you'd have no choice but to admit you're amazing. I figure, if I can amaze myself, this technically makes me amazing. I don't have to amaze anyone else unless I wish to. I don't have to make things shockingly amazing, sometimes amazement can be small yet still noticeable. Once you get used to be amazing, you come to expect you're going to amaze yourself in the future because you've now established it's in your nature. You have proof based on experience. I should add, the thing about a brain in a state of depression or depressing thoughts is - it leads you to reject your abilities and the truth about yourself. It'll do a bit of a 'reality shift' until you shift back into a more truthful frame of mind. In other words, sometimes it feels impossible to recognise and admit to our true amazingness. Doesn't mean it's not there :)

I imagine everywhere you go you're remembered as being a nice guy. That's a good foundation, to start with. You're not remembered as being an unapproachable a-hole or an aggressive guy after a few drinks or a guy who's an arrogant self-indulgent loudmouth. An approachable nice guy who comes across as a little quite is a foundation to be proud of. I understand your concern is 'And what do I do with that when I want to be more than that?' What about gradually adding. What about...an approachable nice guy who comes across as a little quite but occasionally amazing at the same time.

What could you do next that would lead you to amaze yourself? Perhaps something as simple as the next time you're out with folk, raise your glass with a 'Here's to life' and see how others join in with a smile.

Hi Mishmo,

That's great that you have signed up to those groups and I wish you all the best and I reckon it will definitely go well for you!

I definitely understand a lot of what you say you feel in social settings. I believe I am the same and I once had a person who is one of the only real friends I confide in say to me that I should see it as a strength as the more someone gets to know people like us the move there is to uncover which the 'therising' has mentioned as well.

As for the party I see myself as a bit of failure yet again as I went to an event like this and still ended up feeling like I am worthless, not engaging as a person and boring on the drive home. I have felt quite flat in myself since then because part of it also is frustrate and anger at myself that I somehow cannot seem to bring out of myself the qualities I believe I have without being nervous of judgement and reverting back into my shell. I often leave such events with my mind saying "why can't you just be normal", "why can't I just relax and enjoy myself and show people who I am" then this inevitably turns into questions like who would ever be interested in a guy that yeah is nice but boring. I feel pressure to be extroverted from the outset and this is against my natural instinct and I am scared to do this.

Thanks again for your kind words of support

Daniel

Hi therising

Hope you have had a nice weekend

I suppose I need to look at things a bit more in the mindset you mentioned but as I mentioned to 'Mishmo' my immediate feelings are that I am a failure for going to a birthday and not being able to meet someone or not be able to fully come out of my shell in an unfamiliar environment like more extroverted friends of mine can.

I am not sure if what I say makes sense but it is like feeling pathetic because I know the qualities I have around those I know or am familiar with so why do I always retreat inside myself in knew environments or around new people and I feel I am immediately classed as "he's quiet" and it is almost said as an insult and I am left thinking there must be something wrong with me.

With regard to me being perceived as nice I am not sure what your take on my mindset is here but for example in the case of attracting someone to me I think the foundation you mentioned is probably what I am seen as but it feels like it is not enough. I consider myself a nice person and have been told good sense of humour and ability to make people laugh (although I am very dry thanks to my father haha) but I definitely feel deflated that being nice is not what someone wants because I often receive "you are nice but xyz" from people I go out with whether it be a date or otherwise. I feel this overwhelming pressure that I need to somehow discover a side to myself that is the opposite to what I naturally am and I need to act like some "alpha male" to keep someone attracted.

It feels like being down to earth is just not exciting enough a trait to engage people. For example at this birthday one of my friends sisters friends I had spoken to briefly and asked what they do etc and then when she returned the question and I began to answer I sense her immediately tuned out, this happens quite often in these settings and contributes to me feeling like I am boring and I am at a complete loss as to what I am supposed to do. I believe I have an acute sense of realising when this happens and I can see it in peoples faces and it is really for no reason and then queue the intense mental anguish I get from this these reactions and then by the end of the night I concur that I am nothing, I may be nice but clearly not engaging enough or fun or whatever people expect.

Thanks

Daniel

Hi Daniel

I haven't commented for a long time and you've been getting great support here, but I wanted to say something..

Alpha males are a big turn off for a lot of women. I suspect the type of girl they do attract is not the sort that you'd be interested in anyway.

So can I suggest you stop trying to be an alpha type man (I always found them unattractive anyway) and accept you are a quieter sort of guy, and become comfortable with who you are?

I always liked more introverted, sensitive guys. There are plenty of women who like this type of man. I think you need to start by not trying to be someone you are not!

Can you practise your social skills with a friend and ask them for suggestions? The best thing is to ask the other person about themselves and not talk about yourself too much. Take an interest in the person you are talking to. People like to talk about themselves!

Daniel, please stop trying to be Alpha. It becomes a turn off! Start focusing on your positives and start being comfortable with who you are.

I suspect this is what's putting women off. You are probably trying too hard and this makes people uncomfortable.

Can you make a list of your positive attributes?

I wonder if a counsellor might help you?

Maybe read a few books about introversion and social anxiety? Just learn to accept and like yourself?

Good luck, but I truly suspect the problem is that you're trying to be someone you're not and people are sensing this and are not comfortable with you. Please just be yourself!

All the best mate! 🙂

Hi Daniel

Might sound a little strange but people, whether they know it or not, can generally pick up on nervous energy (another person's social anxiety). Unless they recognise what they're picking up on, it may feel uncomfortable for them in some way and that's the reaction you see. People who are aware of nervous energy from another may work to put that person at ease. Not sure whether you've ever experienced being in a room full of strangers and someone starts talking to you in a way where they begin to put you at ease. Some folk are sensitive in this way, sensing the social anxiety in another while sensing the need to lead them to feel more comfortable. I know a couple of amazing guys like this who can work a room full of socially anxious people. They go around igniting smiles, leading people's posture to gradually change. They really enjoy putting people at ease.

Energy's actually an interesting thing when it comes to the many ways it can manifest. You could say our sensitivity to it has declined over time, throughout the generations. You could also say that highly sensitive people experience still being 'tuned in' or 'switched on'.

Let's say you're highly sensitive and I put you in a social setting and then ask you to report to me what you can sense in every person you meet. I really push you to get a sense of everyone's nature under the circumstances. You might report

• I can easily get a sense of/feel all the alpha types
• I can get a sense of/feel the people who are incapable of putting me at ease. I can even feel them completely shut off at some point
• I can get a sense of/feel those who are socially anxious
• I can get a sense of/get a feel for who's getting drunk
• I can get a sense of /feel who's looking for a fight
• I can get a sense of/feel the tension between that couple over there

and the list goes on.

Feeling so much (hypersensitivity) can be anxiety inducing. Let's take it up a notch and say you can feel other people's thoughts in a way. You can feel them thinking 'He's too quiet. This is uncomfortable'. I know that sounds a little trippy but how would it change things if you managed to become insensitive to what others were thinking (learning to tune out at times)? Could you reach a point of 'I can sense what you're thinking but I don't care'?

I've found learning to care less under certain circumstances is a challenging process. To not care, at times, is actually a skill. It's a part of becoming care free.

Hi Hanna

Thanks for your advice and words of support I appreciate it!

I think I have made the mistake in the past of trying to be something I am not and it feel unnatural and then just makes me feel depressed that I don't trust myself to be who I am.

I just feel a lot of pressure I guess that being my natural self is not good enough and it seems the evidence supports that at the moment.

Thanks again

Daniel

Hi therising

I think you make good points that potentially my nervous energy is being felt by others because I think those that know of me or know me I have felt at times can sense me retreat in myself and try to help me out but in saying this it is very fleeting that this happens.

I am really trying hard to make an effort to focus in on a given interaction with someone and not let myself analysing what they are thinking of me or read too much into what people think. I find it very difficult not to get disheartened when I see people basically tune out when I start to talk and not engaged with me that I feel like there is no other way to think other than that it is something about me that causes this.

I mean even on an online dating app for example, and I understand this is part and parcel of it, but it seems like there is an extraordinarily high number of times where I try to engage with someone and talk and am basically cut off at the knees straight away. I try to assess what I am saying like could I be coming at it wrong and after exhaustive assessment I think generally I do the right things/approach.

All this leaves me to wonder how can everyone I come across just not be engaged by me, every girl I meet think I am "nice" but not really interested enough beyond that and this all leads me to feel like there aren't people out there that are interested in me nor care what I have to say or want to spend time with me.

I fully admit I have a problem not being care free as you mentioned and I am frustrated and angry and disappointed in myself that I lack the ability to practice this and it just makes me pathetic. I am too weak in the mind to think that there is nothing wrong with being quiet to begin with and I feel immense pressure and weight on my shoulders to be more out there.

I feel pathetic that whilst I know I have good personality traits I can't seem to muster the strength, courage, skill or whatever you want to call it to bring it out in social settings with a relaxed mind and stop my thoughts of how people perceive me etc and control the subsequent depression that follows.

Sorry for my confusing posts I feel like I jump around a lot between points but I genuinely appreciate your advice and whilst my brain only has a small compartment for being rational lol it does realise that what you say makes sense. I just feel at a hopeless point in my life even though there's things happening that I should be happy about I am just fundamentally not happy

Thanks

Hi Daniel

There are times where being a people pleaser can be incredibly depressing while being hard work. You can be a people pleaser for years and be depressed the whole time. Sometimes it can feel easier to please others rather than be yourself but I found, in the end, it takes its toll. It can also feel depressing when we're spending a lot of time contemplating 'Why aren't I pleasing people? What am I doing wrong? What's wrong with me?'. One thing I've discovered over the years is...a lot of people aren't easily pleased unless we're behaving a certain way. Gee, they can be hard work :)

I don't think your posts are all over the place, not at all. If anything, mine are a little that way. I suppose it's a matter of 'I'll throw a number of different suggestions or ideas at you and see what you can relate to or what might work'. What works for one person may not work for another. A lot of the time, there are no quick fixes or miraculous epiphanies but you should never give up hope when it comes to quick fixes and miraculous epiphanies popping up here and there in life. Such things may not come regularly but they do come.

As I may have mentioned before, I tend to meditate on solutions. I've found this only works while using certain internal dialogue. For it to work, sometimes I have to really work hard to change the dialogue when I'm in what I'd call 'a downer'. I should add, when I'm in a downer I know it's my cue to manage not going into a depression. It can happen easily if I'm not careful. Opening my mind can only happen with the right internal dialogue otherwise my mind stays closed, fixed around depressing dialogue or thoughts. For example, I'll try not to use the phrase 'What's wrong with me?'. Instead I might use 'What's the key issue with this situation?' or 'What's the issue with this person or these people I'm dealing with?' and I'll see what comes to mind. What comes to mind might be words or it might be an image. If I can't get motivated, for example, what might come to mind is 'You need someone to help you at this point' or I might suddenly see myself meeting up with my sister for a D&M conversation. We often help each other make better sense of things. Sometimes what actually comes to mind is 'You're hopeless'. This is often a positive, even though it doesn't sound like it. It points to no one offering me serious hope, I have less hope than usual. Then I'm triggered to wonder 'What's wrong with the people around me?'. A shift in perspective.

Hi therising

I definitely relate to those sort of feelings of asking myself why I can't engage people etc. The issue I seem to have is being able to rationalise as you have that some people are hard to please, you can't please everyone and maybe this or that type of person is not for me, instead I correlate it all to me being boring as a person. I definitely feel I have lost my way and things I used to enjoy and parts of myself I used to show have gone missing because I feel myself constantly analysing myself against others who are different to me and as I have mentioned before in the end I just feel pathetic that I can't just be relaxed in what I am as a person and feels there is not way out of this rabbit hole.

Your posts are not all over the place I have often gone back and read your suggestions and I think you have a very good insight into a lot of what I am saying and appreciate it and recognise that maybe I am being a bit annoying haha. I think I need to work really hard at this stuff as it won't just fall into place as I have been conditioned to this way of thinking, for example I understand that going to that birthday on the weekend would have been a step in right direction but I feel like because I just felt pathetic in myself immediately after and the days after because I feel like I am socially inept at the moment and have completely lost comfortability in myself that it was almost a step backwards.

I have been trying to do this as well in regards to meditating on solutions. I guess I have a really problem with exacerbating my feelings when I am on a downer because I try to answer questions like "what is wrong with me" and the rational side of my says nothing just relax but the critical side of me tries harder and harder to explore what it could be and I go off on a tangent not really knowing where the end of the line is with and it lasts for days on end.

In regards to me feeling depressed about dating, a lot of people say to me what are you worried about you have all this going for you it will happen in time. I understand this I have just hit a wall where it feels like no one sees any quality in me and I'm floundering. I don't have a big network of friends to pull from to get me out and as mentioned I am drowning under pressure to make things happen on my own as I believe my personality type is not conducive to spontaneously meeting someone out and off she goes from there.

Thanks again for your time

Daniel :)

Hi Daniel

You might be interested to know 'Pathetic' can be traced back to the Greek pathētikos, meaning 'capable of feeling'. I can recall a time where I was meditating on why it felt like I was beginning to slip back into depression and what came to mind was 'The problem is you're hopeless and pathetic', which led me to think 'Yeah, thanks for that. What a self-esteem booster'. Then what came to mind next, 'Look up the true meaning of these words and this will make more sense', so I did. I couldn't deny it, at the time I had less hope than I usually did and I was definitely capable of feeling, to the point where I was feeling too much. Add to that the fact that I truly amaze myself at times by how deeply I can contemplate issues, leaving myself in awe, and the truth of the matter was - I was hopeless, pathetic and awful (full of awe) and that wasn't a bad thing. Not sure how 'pathetic' came to find its current meaning. Probably some depressing person decided 'To feel so much shows 'weakness''. In truth, to feel so much reflects ability.

With meditation offering you 'Nothing, just relax' in regard to your question 'What's wrong with me?', could you inquire further? See what comes to mind with further investigation. As I've mentioned, what comes to you might be through words or imagery. With the imagery aspect, what might come to mind is you seeing a couple of your friends relaxing you in a social situation, leading you to loosen up and laugh a bit. If you could begin to imagine that, how would it look? Could your friends help kind of guide and reform you to naturally or strategically relax more, over time? Could they or someone else you're close to offer some skills in relaxing socially?

I asked my daughter yesterday for tips on how she manages somewhat anxiety inducing social situations. She told me that in the past she's managed with the help of friends who occasionally push her outside of her comfort zone. While she's outside of her comfort zone they don't desert her, they relax her into being herself which others (strangers in that situation) get to see. She mentioned how practicing being outside her comfort zone with the help of friends has led her to be more confident. She says she couldn't have got this far without them, picking up some of their abilities.

That rabbit hole of self discovery - once you venture in, the challenge is to learn to navigate. There is so much to discover, more than you might imagine. Some people never venture in at all :)

Hi therising

Firstly, your daughter sounds very intelligent and sounds like she has a good support network of friends which would be invaluable for her and I agree with her approach. I have tried to implement this myself in terms of getting out of my comfort zone and practicing it like you mentioned. I only have really a couple of friends who can help me with this as I sort of get left to my own devices a bit and thats when I sort of struggle to fully get out of my shell. My friends sometimes are surprised that I don't get out of my shell because around those I know it's very different, this sort of makes me feel worse that I don't have the courage to sort of release myself in new social settings.

I have probably mentioned this before but I feel boring because for me, if I use meeting women as an example, I feel pressure that if I meet someone out or online or wherever it may be that everything I have to say is like "banter" or the like and if I try to get into what I would say is normal conversation such as finding out what a person does for a living, I am immediately seen as boring or I feel the other person tuning out. I don't know if this is a product of my generation but I find myself going into social events like the one this past weekend already feeling a pressurised mindset that I have to make something happen, I have to be more fun and I can't be myself otherwise I won't attract people.

Another thing, and forgive me if I have mentioned this before as but it sort of represents how my mind is working at the moment and I am not sure how to quell this, but I dated someone I was pretty compatible with earlier this year and I got "friend zoned" for lack of a better term really out of nowhere when it seemed at its highest point of interest. I have really struggled to eliminate it from my mind and I find myself questioning what I did to cause that sudden shift and it's like a replaying tape, theres a lot of disappointment attach to it as even now we have spoken and really doesn't seem like there is much issue between each other (we live quite close that is why we run into each other) but I find myself looking for an answer. I get disheartened with other situations that don't work out because I find myself not being able to connect with others like that. Sounds silly I know but I guess its an example of how I struggle to contain my thoughts and move on from things/disappointments and I feel like the hope of me finding someone is at an all time low.

Thanks

Hi Daniel

Is there any way you can find out why the relationship that looked like a strong possibility didn't work out? Perhaps there's someone who knows her who might have some insight, if you don't feel comfortable asking her directly. I can understand your need to put you're mind at ease as well as gaining some clarity for the sake of future relationships.

Both my kids have sage like qualities. I regard them as 2 of my greatest teachers in life. Some time ago, I'd asked my daughter for her take on online dating and she said the chances of her meeting someone online who would accept her for being her are rare, so she wouldn't explore it unless she really felt the need. If she did feel the need, she said she would have to openly reveal not just her good points but also some of her quirks, such as having no interest at all in small talk. This way expectations are more realistic. She'd much prefer to get a feel for the true nature of people when out with friends. Kind of like getting a feel for the chemistry, whether it's there or not. On the other hand, my nephew got married last year to a beautiful gal he met online. They're expecting their 1st child very soon.

I was thinking about it and it occurred to me that I look for cues when it comes to conversation. Because I'm not great at small talk (it actually leads me to feel a little anxious based on my inability to manage it well), I rely on people cuing me when it comes to topics beyond small talk. Kind of like getting a feel for what people are open to discussing. I'll warn you in saying I'm 'a little out there'. I have a mind that's seriously open to wonder, so I do tend to wonder about and raise some bizarre topics at times :)

For me to be able to openly discuss certain topics, there came a point where my internal dialogue had to change. Not sure if you can relate but that internal dialogue used to sound a little like 'You can't ask/suggest that, people will think you're weird', 'You can't say that. What will that person think of you' and the list of conversation stoppers went on. There would be a stack of things I would like to have said to people but a part of me just wouldn't let that happen, out of fear. So, I was stuck saying very little at all. I was also stuck in the habit of kicking myself after those occasions. So many missed opportunities.

Do you ever find yourself wanting to discuss certain topics with people or ask certain questions but you just can't give yourself permission to do this?

Hi therising

I have thought about doing this but I figured that I may know the reason. She was 21 and I am 25, I think half of it was potentially a maturity factor and I am not what she would be looking for currently although we match quite well. My sister mentioned that a 21 year old (not all obviously) may not have the foresight that someone my own age with a few more years experience would have. I think 50% of it was I am probably in a way too mature at this stage for what she wants and 50% most likely wasn’t into me that much and I may have missed judged it.

I feel pathetic even just writing about it now because I should just be over it, the fact we live so close doesn’t help and also we have run into each other a number of times and it is never awkward which leads me to believe I didn’t DO anything that would of be a turn off because there is definitely a mutual respect I just think the cards didn’t fall in my favour which probably doesn’t make sense but it’s a bit of a stinger of a feeling. In a stupid way I sort of think maybe one day but I realise it’s slim to no chance and I have just tried to date others and continue my search I just get down hearted when I meet people and I don’t connect as I did with that one for example.

The online stuff is a real struggle for me as I have had numerous people tell my profiles are fine and that if anything it doesn’t do me justice but I very rarely get matches and it’s just a feeding ground to slowly break down your self esteem but I feel I am not conducive to randomly meeting people out it’s hard to explain so I feel it’s my only option.

I definitely relate to what you are saying and couldn’t have described it better myself in terms of the internal dialogue when I am out. I have done this so many times, stopped myself from really being myself out of fear of judgement and the kicking myself afterwards turns into a bid depressive episode of how much of a loser I am that I can’t do this.

I’m wondering what things you have tried to sort of eliminate that type of stuff and try to get rid of that fear of judgement and just say what you want and be comfortable because that’s all I want is just to be comfortable to be myself

Thanks again

Daniel

Hi Daniel

The online dating makes perfect sense in a way. It's kind of like laying your cards on the table. Instead of slowly or gradually getting to know someone we might meet while we're out, it's more about cutting to the chase, 'This is who I am - this is my name, my age, what I like, what I don't like, my strengths, my triggers...' and so on. In a way, you could say it's a time saver. You don't have to spend time figuring out someone's basically not for you. When I asked my daughter about the go with online dating, she mentioned something about the way to go involving putting something in there that's somewhat shocking in a way. I suppose it's about triggering the other person to wonder, interest or curiosity. For example, you might describe yourself in all the basic ways someone might describe themself with online dating but, somewhere in there, you throw in 'One of my passions involves questioning the general nature of reality'. Bamm! You're going to attract just about anyone who loves to question the nature of reality and you can be almost guaranteed that this topic of conversation will come up in your first face to face date. She might question it from the perspective of quantum physics or the woo woo perspective, of spirituality. I may have mentioned I'm a bit of a woo woo gal myself :) I'll question reality from just about every perspective I can think of, including a psychological perspective. My son's pretty much the same. We have some pretty interesting conversations. My husband rarely ever questions his sense of reality, which kinda triggers me at times :)

I found a shift in internal dialogue was a very gradual thing for me when it comes to expressing who I naturally am around others. It definitely involves some risk. While I've had some hits when it comes to hitting it off with people, I've also had some misses where I wish I hadn't fully expressed myself. I think it comes down to exercising our instinct through practice. It's like gradually getting a feel for things: Is the sage in you wisely saying 'Don't say it out loud right now' or is it an over protective fearful aspect of yourself saying 'Don't say it, whatever you do. They'll reject you'? With practice, you start to get a feel for where the internal dialogue's coming from. Then there can be another aspect of who we are who may pop in, that carefree side of us, dictating 'Who cares what anyone thinks' and we give our self the freedom to say something, no matter the outcome.

:)

Hi therising

I definitely agree with your thoughts about online dating as well as your daughters thoughts. The struggle I finds I have played around with my profiles to try target different things and try and fix what may not be working but it's just a complete lack of any hits for me. When I do get a match it basically falls flat straight away and it is a really disheartening, soul destroying process when you couple it with how I feel I am socially and the end result is a complete lack of hope in meeting someone. I have had friends of mine that I have asked for advice, females in particular, and they say there is nothing wrong with my profiles or my approach but I just cannot see how there isn't something wrong with me to cause the complete lack of hope and progress.

Each time I go on a date I find myself unable to connect with the other person or it's just not right or they often just stop talking to me afterwards or give me the "you're a nice guy but...". I feel pathetic for even saying this but each time it just reminds me of the girl I have mentioned and what the hell I did to stuff that up because it feels like that was my opportunity and if I didn't have this problem of self questioning and internal dialogue and had of been able to just let myself go a bit it may have been different and I am filled with a huge feeling go regret because I know that will never happen and I was just not good enough in the end.

With everyone of my friends now pretty much in a relationship or dating someone I feel like I am more on my own than ever before because I don't see people I just don't see any light at the end of the tunnel if I am honest. I am constantly battling myself inside.

I like to think that I try to get myself out and practice relaxing the internal dialogue, like the birthday the other week and other events recently I just get so down afterwards if I have momentary lapses in my mindset and feel like I am self conscious again. I don't really know what I am doing anymore if I am honest, I am supposed to be graduating my engineering degree and have been given a new higher role at work and I feel like I should be happy/proud but it just doesn't matter because I feel like I'm stagnating socially and don't have anyone I connect with.

Sorry for the all over the place posting again

Daniel

Hi Daniel

It would be interesting to get the perspective of someone who's completely familiar with online dating, who's gone through the highs and lows of it over time. I imagine if you spoke to such people they'd say stuff like 'I can remember going through that myself. Gee, it leads to a lot self criticism and self doubt'. They may also say 'It took me ages to figure out why things weren't working. When I finally figured it out, things began to change'. Not sure what kinds of things they would have worked out but I can imagine hearing someone say 'Whatever you do, don't go on these sites... I found they're a waste of time and effort and they just get you down. These are the ones to seriously consider...'.

It's so tough at times when you're craving what everyone else appears to have and be so happy with, such as with having a partner to share time with. I can recall many years ago, after having a couple of early stage miscarriages, seeing so many pregnant women. It was like they were all coming out of the woodwork to remind me of what I didn't have. Whether it's a relationship, a child, the job of our dreams or something else, progress towards it can feel painstakingly slow and even mentally torturous. It can really start to mess with us in so many ways.

How much easier life would be if we could see what was just around the corner. It would be a matter of 'I'm glad I know I don't have to wait too long for what I want'. Unfortunately we can't always see it and that can mess with us too, not having that sort of vision. When I think about my vision of the future after those miscarriages, all I could see was a lack of success in having my next child, my 2nd child. Finally, he came along and is 16 now. Toward the end of my 15 year battle with depression, I never envisioned my freedom from depression was just around the corner. My vision was more so of me experiencing depression for the rest of my life. For you, what might be just around the corner is a woman who starts off as a friend and that friendship leads to more. It's rare to have an intimate relationship that begins as a friendship but I believe it's the strongest kind of relationship. My cousin has this sort of relationship with her husband of more than 30 years. She'd tell you she was closed minded and not at all interested in him as a partner in the beginning, believing he was boring. She grew fascinated with him to the point where she knew she couldn't live without him. He is a fascinating guy.

Hi therising

I have been told the types of apps to avoid if you’re trying to find a partner at my age and it’s actually been those apps that have been the worst for me. I take things harder on those apps because I think “gee these are the ones where people have found people and it’s like I have no hope”.

I am really struggling with things at the moment as you say seeing all those around me with what I want and what I have really been trying to find just makes the end of the tunnel seem further and further away. I am exhausted of online dating and I want to take a break but I feel like I can’t because I have no other way of meeting people at the moment because my friends are taken and when I am out I feel pathetic and that I have no redeeming features to attract someone in person.

I feel as though I am “partner material” and have been told this but I fear this might be too “safe” or boring for girls I meet and that I am not “fun” or “engaging” to spark interest.

I know I sound stupid because I’ve let this really spark my depression but I just feel incredibly alone and so far away from what I really want. I’m struggling everyday to keep this internal battle from boiling over and trying to remain calm but I don’t even understand where I can start to change things and to be honest I reckon I am pathetic and weak minded that I can’t even think of where to start or am not enough of man to do so.

I feel like my soul is crushed and I just spend the days thinking all this over and just feel defeated every step of the way

Hi Daniel12,

I have been in a few relationships over the years as well as having had long periods in between. Most of the in between periods were ok, as I am generally comfortable with my own company and that of good friends, but I know that doesn’t suit everyone. There was however, a period in my life when I desperately wanted a relationship and try as I might nothing fell into place.

A year or so later, I was given an opportunity to change career and that presented me with a whole new learning curve. I was starting over from scratch, new job, location, friends and a lot of other challenges, which meant I wanted and needed to focus. With that in mind I made myself a promise that I wouldn’t get involved in a relationship and therefore be distracted, until I was confident and competent in my new role.

I don’t recall how long that promise actually lasted but it seemed as though I started receiving attention only a few months in, which at the time was flattering and embarrassing as I was a little shy, annoying because I was trying to focus and confusing because back then, I couldn’t understand why.

Eventually, I came to realise that being focused on something and not looking for a relationship meant that I was sometimes considered ‘aloof’. I wasn’t rude or abrupt, just focused on my job which meant I came across to others as just being me, a regular bloke with no expectations of others.

I also came to realise that when people are desperate they tend to try too hard and in the case of relationships, that desperation can be viewed by others as being unattractive and off-putting. Sometimes the harder we try, the less likely we are to find the thing we are looking for and when we aren’t looking for something, that’s precisely when it falls in our lap.

I don’t necessarily think it’s wrong to self-assess ourselves occasionally in order to better understand who we are, but I would like to suggest that we should never try to be anything but ourselves because when the time comes, we all want a relationship with someone who see's and appreciates us for who are.

You may know the old saying can’t see the wood for the trees, meaning someone becomes so focused on something, they struggle to find it. Sometimes it is better to stop looking, take a step back, give yourself some breathing room, focus your energy elsewhere for a while and let fate run its course.

Hi Daniel

I've never really put all that much thought into what makes a person attractive in a variety of ways. Looking back, I can recall what I did to make myself more physically attractive when I was on the dating scene and realise it's probably easier for females in a way. We can add make up to create a certain appearance, do a stack of stuff with our hair and the variety of clothing out there is just about endless. In the way of mental attraction, I wasn't all that mentally confident which is one of the reasons I was a drinker, so I wouldn't feel my social awkwardness (a feeling that is challenging). Of course, alcohol changed my persona, leading me to become more relaxed and approachable. If I had my time again, I wouldn't have been a drinker, I wouldn't have been so reliable on alcohol. As I say to my kids, 'There's no skill in being an alcoholic, yet there is great skill involved when it comes to not relying on alcohol'. When I ceased being a drinker, I found I had few social skills. I hadn't really developed all that much with booze in my life. In fact it was a significant contributor to my depression.

You mentioned how that girl in your life was possibly looking for someone not so mature. A majority of females will agree, what makes a guy attractive to them changes over time, based on a change in perspective that comes from greater maturity and experience. We look for a more relaxed natural guy, not an 'actor'. We learn to gain a sense of whether a guy is a self server or if he's an openhearted type. The self servers are hard work and demoralising. We develop more of a curiosity when it comes to the quiet type. I smile when I think of how so many elderly people just love to strike up conversations with just about anyone, especially strangers. This is typically something that develops over time. We don't just suddenly become 'a chatty old person', we typically simply learn over time to stop caring so much about keeping our curiosity to our self :)

Wondering if you've tried looking for older women, such as around 30. Perhaps this is of no interest. Such a woman doesn't have to be super confident, have a well established career etc, she simply might just be someone more down to earth, easy going (not hard work). If you're thinking 'I wonder how she'd fit into my circle of friends', perhaps it would be more interesting to consider how you may easily fit into her circle of down to earth friends. They may absolutely love bringing out the best in you.

Hi therising

I believe I am mature in the sense that I act my age and generally believe I am well versed in the sense that I can talk about a number of topics when I am actually able to socially accept myself. I think compared to people I have grown up around some of these guys still act like they are 20/21, which in itself there is nothing wrong with if they are that way inclined but I believe in general I am more grounded, quiet, down to earth which contributes to the maturity.

With that girl I think the stage of life, her still in the uni-lifestyle and me basically starting/having started full time work may have contributed to it but in general I just think I was too boring and she didn't like me enough because I am just down to earth/nice and this isn't enough even though I'd like to think this isn't all I am.

I feel like, and I am not sure what your thoughts are on this and apologies if it is confusing, but being a nice guy, down to earth, quiet, a listen first and a bit more mature type of person than some others around me makes me fundamentally a boring prospect for women. I'd say I like to just have a conversation with people and I am best in 1-on-1 or smaller groups. The problem I have is I feel like to be myself and just be nice/down to earth is too boring and doesn't excite or spark enough interest. I am really struggling to see why anyone would be serious about seeing me and what redeeming features I have and why I not just boring. There has to be something wrong with me because I can't seem to garner interest in someone beyond a very short period.

Funnily enough I have met women around 29/30 out by chance, they definitely looked younger than this, and in a way it is easier for me to talk to them as I don't feel the same pressure that everything that comes out of my mouth has to be "banter". I would most likely prefer someone my own age or younger but if it was to be older maybe just a year or two older.

I guess that's another thing that I feel an immense pressure around and it sort of relates to this feeling I have to be "alpha" that I need to joke, banter and the like 24/7 I can't just be normal, the pressure is all on me to "make things spark".

I sort of want to take a step back but given how lonely I feel it's hard

Thanks again

Daniel

Hi OldDog

Thanks for your post and advice I really appreciate the kind words!

I definitely think you give some good advice I guess I am just really struggling to block it out of my mind. I would say my working life is under control at the moment and thankfully it is not a source of too much stress but in a way it is almost a bad thing because it gives me too much time to think about how I seem to be faltering at every step in terms of meeting someone.

My friends are all dating and I don't seem them as often and just feel sort of forgotten about, I am not someone who is overtly out there so I struggle to make new friends straight away because I am more introverted and I get very anxious doing new things even though I push myself to go and try.

I have sort of been raised to think that I need to make things happen so I get uncomfortable if I am not "working on" this area of my life consistently but I think lockdowns and working from home as well has really made this issue consume my daily life.

I know it is silly to think you can know what is around the corner but it's just a complete lack of hope that I feel with it all at the moment, I have thought about starting new things but I'm very anxious about not being accepted so I have stopped myself.

Thanks again

Daniel