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Forums / Long term support over the journey / Animal cruelty, climate change, monoculture...the list goes on.

Topic: Animal cruelty, climate change, monoculture...the list goes on.

  1. Just Sara
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    31 July 2018 in reply to Unbeliever

    Hi UB; (Waves to all!)

    It was me who hijacked this thread, so it's on my shoulders, not yours.

    Your gracious response is just what the Dr ordered, so I'll reply on your thread to continue what I feel's an important growth opportunity for me, and hopefully you as well.

    Apologies to Chrissystar, Birdy and Pepper too. This is an important topic of discussion; mental health issues or not. It's a pearler!

    Kind thoughts;

    Sez x

    2 people found this helpful
  2. Peppermintbach
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    1 August 2018 in reply to Just Sara

    Hi ChrissyStar and all,

    birdy: thanks for clarifying :) I’m happy that it was a fun coincidence. Thanks again for the quote and poem. Really appreciated it ❤️

    UB and Sez: don’t worry about it. There’s no need to apologise as far as I’m concerned. I’m not fussed plus I get why you wanted to talk to each other here. All good, no stress. It’s completely okay ;)

    Sez: Maya Angelou was someone pretty special. She was a powerful woman. She used her voice and (rightfully) demanded to be heard in a time when people of her culture didn’t have much of a voice. I suppose that’s one of the reasons why she is still celebrated today :)

    But going back to the environment...

    Yes, worker exploitation and environmental damage from certain players in the fashion industry has been an ongoing issue. I suppose the plus side is none of us are (theoretically at least) passive consumers. I feel we can opt in or opt out of what we choose to (or choose not to) consume in the fashion world.

    Personally, I don’t mind if production occurs domestically or overseas as long as the workers are paid a liveable wage and work in safe and clean conditions, and if the company is committed to minimising its environmental impact.

    Melbourne sounds like it was a very exciting place when you were young. It still is though...personally I feel Melbourne is probably one of the most sophisticated and creative capitals in Australia today :)

    Your venture into making clothes was brave but I suppose fabric is expensive and having to factor costs, time, etc, it must have been challenging.

    Hi all:

    Speaking of the fashion industry, here are some more environmentally friendly and worker friendly alternatives:

    • Look out for new sustainable/ethical clothing labels- they are run by owners who are committed to paying their workers a livable wage, safe working conditions, etc.
    • quality over quantity” mentality: buy high quality clothes from local or international designers or quality secondhand pieces. The kind that will last many years...
    • secondhand: op shops, vintage, etc is your friend here :)
    • clothing swaps: exactly as the name suggests where people meet to exchange their old unwanted clothes.
    • Question cheap brand new clothes: if it’s new and very cheap, chances are that corners are being cut somewhere and it’s the environment and low skilled workers who are paying their price.

    Pepper xoxo

    2 people found this helpful
  3. Unbeliever
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    3 August 2018

    I am finding the whole "supermarket shopping bag" public complaining around Australia extremely mindnumbing and disappointing.

    My mother and me starting taking string bags (back then) with us everytime we went shopping when I was 8 years old (32 years ago) which was about 20 years before it became "popular" and long before the "plastic bag ban" was initiated in South Australia in 2009.

    Been using bread bags for bin liners for just as long.

    I don't drink coffee, but I bought one of those small 600ml "soft drink bottle" style thermas metal bottles over 10 years ago and carry it with me daily (plus it keeps drinks hotter and cooler for much longer and can't possibly spill).

    I bought a metal stainless steel straw about 2 years back which is small and easy to bring with me everywhere.

    We rarely put out our rubbish bin weekly anymore. Haven't needed to for many years. Between composting all our organics, green bin (with you can put in things like pizza boxes etc) and recycling it usually takes us (a household of 3 adults) about 3-4 weeks to successfully fill up our rubbish bin to even close to the top.

    Got solar panels about 9 years ago, whic were not super cheap but paid for themselves within about 3-4 years (didn't have to pay for a single bill over that time... all covered by solar credits). This is in the State, in the country which has the highest electricity prices in the world). Unfortunately recently, while charging us the max cost for what we use they have reduced ridiculously the "value" of solar credits for what we generate (which really sucks).

    Regardless, a Tesla house battery is next on the list when they become a little more mainstream... and therefore affordable.

    I've written up new "sustainable" policies, shown them to my employers and help impliment and transition them at everywhere I've ever worked.

    Haven't bought KFC, Nestle, Coca Cola or any palm oil products for about 20 years. Only ever bought "free-range" animal products as far back as I can remember (plus I look up to double check what exactly is their policy).

    ... the list goes on and on.

    I don't understand why the public finds these things complicated... or why they need to wait for Governments to impose bans (and then complain) or wait for businesses and corporations to impose new rules (and then complain).

    We constantly blame "corrupt" governments and "evil" corporations... while taking absolutely take no responsibility ourselves.

    It makes me SO angry and disappointed.

    4 people found this helpful
  4. Ggrand
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    4 August 2018 in reply to Unbeliever

    Hello Peppy, Birdy, UB, Sez and all.

    I just wanted to pop in here, to vent, rage or whatever you call it..but I call it dissapointment.. Let me explain..
    On my way to work the last few times, not this week, but the weeks before...I pass huge farms cattle, sheep, I see horses, llamas, cows, sheep etc.
    There's one farm that breaks my heart evertime I'm passing it......There are about 100+ sheep put into two paddocks and I'm presuming daily the farmer is buying in food and feeding them..The sheep are thin but the farmer is paying out possibly thousands a month to keep them alive... This buying food for cows, horses, sheep ect you see it all over the place here.

    There are a few bigger small towns around my village, and the bigger one which has coles, Woolworths, soldiers club, etc..population is a few over 4,000 residence...The council has given one town $58,000.00 to put in some bush walking trails, and to beautify a corner with flowers rocks etc...Our town got $4,000.00 for well I don't know...The bigger town got heaps of $'s, the bowling club got 60,000.00 for renovations, anyhow my dissapointment comes because the councils giving these grants, should have given the grants to the farmers,...I don't see the sense in beautifying the town with flowers through a drought when our farmers are doing it hard...some are not eating, feeding their stock animals instead of themselves...

    It's sad out here, on the farms there not a blade of eatable grass for the animals, it's dirt, that red dirt that you hear about, my yard is dirt, accross the road is dirt...I have heard that farmers are putting there animal out of the pain their cows, sheep, this is there livelihood . because the animals they are suffering a slow death of starvation/ dehydration with no water or food.. ....All that grant money could it have possibly fed some farmers or their animals...

    I keep thinking, walking paths, bridges, corner beautification, can all wait until another day...Our farmers desperately need help first, before superficial cosmetic things being done to tiny villages in the middle of nowhere.. I was about to post this when I just heard that a major town has been given a $60,000. grant to build a small bridge over a dried up river, better do it now while the river is dry from the flood, that way it will be easier to build with no water around.....heard these words being said on our local news...
    Not sure if I'm off topic, but I just wanted to voice my disappointment..


    Grandy...


    5 people found this helpful
  5. Unbeliever
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    4 August 2018 in reply to Ggrand

    Many years ago when I was still in early teenagehood. I was researching for the major "end of year" project (worth like 35% of my grade or something).

    While studying I came across an article about Greenpeace.

    Now, as an animal lover I had been an avid supporter of Greenpeace my entire life. I had given the pittence of cash I had access to numerous times when I was in primary school and got family members to donate to the cause... even helped at drives to raise money for Greenpeace a few times.

    But this article made my blood run cold...

    You see, when I was very young (4-5 years old) certain species of elephant were in big trouble in Africa... mainly due to things like the ivory trade. Now organisations like Greenpeace had stepped in, helped protect them, contributed to breeding programs, hired gunhands to guard them, brought into law preventions of local tribes to stop hunting them for meat and gave them alternative food sources etc etc

    All great stuff. Which by that point had brought them back from the brink.

    But what I didn't know was that their numbers had increased so much because of the immense public donations contributed since those early days... that they were facing a new threat, too much population to sustain.

    You see, when elephants did their immense migrations across the continent they needed to eat massive amounts of food along the way. The ones in the front got ample food (stripping trees etc) the ones at the back got whatever was left behind... which in the past had always been enough.

    But because their populations had grown so much. To survive the elephants at the back had been stripping the leftovers of the trees so much they they killed the plants... so the next year's migration they would not be there to eat.

    The result? Each year more elephants were starving, mothers could not provide enough milk for infants... the species was again on the brink of collapse.

    And yet for Greenpeace elephants were their main "cash cow" for donations (and dolphins, pandas etc). So they wouldn't change their position to lighten up the laws to compensate... which had led to this horrifying situation.

    I never donated to Greenpeace again.

    This farming situation is terrible no doubt. But I have looked up what many of these farms Australia is helping are contributing to... live animal export, non-free range animals, and worse.

    Not all of them of course. But this universal handout method? I just can't do that.

    Better a few animals suffer now, than millions later.

    2 people found this helpful
  6. Peppermintbach
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    5 August 2018 in reply to Unbeliever

    Hi Grandy and UB (waves to all),

    I can see where you’re both coming from and I feel you both have valid points...I suppose it comes down to whose perspective we want to look at things from: the farmers’ or the animals themselves. I feel for the farmers’ situation but I also feel for the animals so I’m conflicted...

    I wonder if perhaps there is a middle ground. A very expensive middle ground for governments, mind you...but something that could both reduce animal welfare issues (such as, live animal exports) as well as help struggling farmers is probably best in my opinion.

    I’m not saying this is the “solution” but maybe give farmers more initial relief aid/financial assistance for immediate problems. Help them stay afloat for now...

    But make further/subsequent financial assistance conditional on farmers changing the way that they operate their farms. By “differently”, I mean incorporating guidelines for improved minimum living standards for the animals on their farm, and perhaps even introducing more crop based farming (and reducing livestock over time), which the additional aid would help cover...

    Just sharing my stray thoughts...

    Kind thoughts to all,

    Pepper xoxo

    3 people found this helpful
  7. Unbeliever
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    5 August 2018 in reply to Peppermintbach

    Pepper,

    Once again I fell victim to the "limit" and had to cut out some of the detail required for my previous post to be properly representative of my thoughts.

    What I meant was... After what I learned with that particular circumstance I wrote about above, I could no longer give money to charities in a general sense (meaning give to an organisation to do with as they wish).

    However, giving money that will only be used to achieve a SPECIFIC cause... that is something I can definitely support.

    If you gave me the option to give money to help out some fantastic and ethical free-range, never sells animals to the live export trade, cool farms trying to do the right thing that are currently struggling... I'm all for it. Please take my money.

    But donating money to a "general cause" where I have no idea where my $$$'s are going and who or what they are going to be used for? Sorry, but I can never do that again. I carry enough guilt on my shoulders as it is thanks.

    There are farms (not all, but more than a few) that exist out there that have been happy to get themselves into massive debt in order to expand their operations of unethical farming practises (although quite legal by Australian Governmental Law).

    As harsh as this will sound... those types of farms, regardless of whether it has been in their families for generations or not, by pursuing this type of farming, in my opinion don't deserve to survive into the future (especially since climate change is just going to make this situation worse and worse for a very long time).

    But those farms that are trying to do the right things... as I said before, please give me the option to help them, and ONLY them. Because without that option... I simply can't.

    Truth is... I STILL feel guilty for helping Greenpeace almost 30 years ago because of those starving elephants. It is something that I just can't shake loose from the back of my subconscious (and believe me I've tried).

    2 people found this helpful
  8. Birdy77
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    7 August 2018 in reply to Peppermintbach

    Hello all 😊

    I am not sure I should post my feelings around these issues .... i have been reading, and biting my tongue ...

    And yet here I am ...

    I understand your concerns and viewpoint Grandy, and as always, your compassionate heart is concerned for others (the farmers). I agree that at a time like this, your local council's funding priorities seem rather warped.

    But I do agree with Unbeliever, that a blanket funding handout to farmers is fraught with problems.
    I think Pepper has outlined a really sensible compromise. I like the idea of funding conditional on regulated improvements to animal welfare in agriculture. Animals Australia and the RSPCA have recently together been involved with something similar surrounding assistance for the sheep farmers who argued that their livelihoods would be compromised if live export was to be banned.

    I have very particular feelings around these issues. My views are not popular and I do not want to upset anybody.

    But from my perspective, the life of a little hen used for her reproductive system (and the baby male chicks chucked in the grinder because they don't lay eggs), or an intelligent, gentle mumma pig kept in a crate to produce bubbas to provide humans a strip of bacon, the life of a frisky, happy lamb that has no idea he will become someone's Sunday roast, the dear cow impregnated and forced to carry her calf to term only to have him taken away and used for veal so humans can have her milk ... all these lives, (these lives that have been forced into existence) in my eyes, are just as important as those endangered elephants, those Pandas, those dogs in China, the dolphins trapped at Seaworld forced to perform entertainment ...

    In my eyes, to deliberately bring life into existence for the sole and express purpose to take it again, to me, is warped.

    However, this is the society in which we live. We live in a society that views these animals as commodities, not thinking, feeling beings who experience fear. These "commodities" are people's livelihoods. I understand that. (I just wish it wasn't true).

    Pepper mentioned looking at the problem from the point of view of the animals. I think if more people did this, the word would be a much gentler place.

    I hope I haven't upset anyone, it's an issue that causes me great distress on a daily basis. My heart is hurting as write this, please know that my words come from a place of compassion.

    Peace, love and light to you all, from me ❤

    🌻birdy

    4 people found this helpful
  9. Unbeliever
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    7 August 2018 in reply to Birdy77
    We live in a very strange age...

    I've met outspoken vegans that have proudly shown off their leather purses or shoes because they were some world famous "brand".

    Women showing off the size of their diamond wedding ring... who are completely and vocally opposed to the slave labor trade.

    Animal advocates that have absolutely no idea about the PMU menapause treatment industry and what they are contributing to...

    We have coastal coral being deformed and damaged by the sheer amount of sunscreen being washed of the skin by beachgoers.

    Travel destinations like the Galapagos Islands and many others being severely damaged and the species threatened simply by the uncontrollable tourist numbers visiting (since travel has become much more affordable to the middle-lower classes worldwide).

    People replacing their phones and electronics to the "latest model" without having any idea about the coltan mining impacts.

    Australia being in pretty much the best position in the world to create a sustainable energy generation and storage society for the last 30 years (wealthy country, completely surrounded by water and strong currents, strong sun beating down on large uninhabitable areas, large flat areas with regular all year round wind etc etc) and yet we are falling behind numerous small 3rd world countries... and with a current government in power happily talking as if "sustainablity" somehow equals "evil".

    People not realising that "interest" on debts (loans/credit cards/mortages etc) is contributing to the creation of "dead money" that is not represented by anything physical in the real world... and adding to a massive decrease of the quality of life for people here and everywhere else worldwide.

    That petrol has been a continual "hemmorage of money" from the Australian economy for the last 50 years. Every barrel we have ever bought... all those dollars are gone from our economy, never to come back. People talk about "buying local" but are happy to send out multi-billions out of the country so the don't have to walk 5 minutes to the local shop.

    And I don't know how "Palm Oil" has been included into almost every single product on the supermarket shelf... but it isn't/wasn't because of me over the last 20 years. The sheer amount of people who must have made palm oil so profitable to get to the point of such semi-complete saturation into almost all of our products... makes me sick.

    Again... I could go on and on and on.
    1 person found this helpful
  10. Peppermintbach
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    8 August 2018 in reply to Birdy77

    Hi lovely, caring people...

    UB and birdy: It’s great to hear from both of you :) I love how thoughtful, caring and compassionate you both are...

    Thank you so much for elaborating, UB. It’s always good to hear your take on things. I feel you made some very reasonable points in your earlier post...great points!

    Also, I really admire your gutsy and candid post, birdy. I know your words come from a place of deep caring and pain. I realise that could not have been easy for you to share but you bravely hit “post”... there would have been a lot of fear and hesitation before you decided to post.

    Thank you birdy (thanks to you too, UB).

    If we really want to get down to it, I feel both of you have highly valid points and that, fundamentally, I agree...

    That said, I also feel for the plight of the farmers, and don’t exactly like the idea of them struggling as much as they are...

    So as I said before, I do feel conflicted...I suppose, in short, I stand by my earlier comments about making compromises :) A middle ground that both helps farmers as well as improves the living standards of animals/minimises the environmental impact is what I’m hoping for.

    Kindness and warmth,

    Pepper

    2 people found this helpful
  11. Birdy77
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    8 August 2018 in reply to Peppermintbach

    Hello everyone 😊

    Unbeliever, I agree, we live in a very strange age.

    Pepper, thank you for your truly lovely reply xo

    I just would like to clarify that I agree with you Pepper, that compromise is the way to go. Lasting, permanent change is made up of compromises.

    I also want to clarify that I truly feel for the farmers and their plight as well. I didn't make that clear, although I thought I had (character limit, I get it UB!).

    I have friends and family who are farmers. I don't want them to be struggling, it can lead to dreadful, terrible consequences. My compassion extends to them as well.

    My outpouring above was from my idealistic (not realistic) heart. Pepper your sensible points are from a realistic perspective and I agree with them.

    Just needed to clarify, I am so sorry I did not express my thoughts as clearly as I would have liked. My apologies to all.

    🌻birdy

    2 people found this helpful
  12. Peppermintbach
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    8 August 2018 in reply to Birdy77

    Hi birdy (and a wave to all),

    Seriously, please don’t apologise. I feel there’s nothing to be “sorry” for.

    Perhaps I was the one who wasn’t clear in my expression. I’m sorry birdy, my bad...

    I know how close to heart this topic is to you and of course your points are valid and your voice is 100% important. Fundamentally, as I said, I agree with your points (yours too, DB)...if we really want to get down to it, my own ideals align to yours to a large extent.

    But for better or for worse, I’ve learnt to reign in my idealism and bring forth my pragmatism (sometimes at least). A “practical idealist” if there ever was such a thing ;) I try to see a birds-eye view as much as I can, which often means making necessary compromises, and trying to walk a mile in another person’s shoes...not always easy to do but I find it helpful...

    Sorry, I hope that didn’t come across as a lecture (because that’s not my intention) but it’s just something that I’ve learnt from personal experience. I’m extremely aware of the complexity of this whole issue(s), and I’m also aware that many of us on this thread are on the minority side of an issue, which is why I often opt for a softer approach. Hope I’m making sense...

    Anyway, I hope that didn’t upset either of you.

    kindness and warmth to all,

    Pepper xoxo

    2 people found this helpful
  13. Peppermintbach
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    8 August 2018 in reply to Birdy77

    Sorry, I forgot to add...I hear you...I do understand that you both feel for the plight of farmers.

    I feel like now I’m the one being unclear. Lol

    Kindness to all...

    Pepper xoxo

    2 people found this helpful
  14. Unbeliever
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    8 August 2018 in reply to Peppermintbach

    I also do not mean to sound apathetic or indifferent to any of the farmers.

    I do feel empathy towards them as individuals and their families... there are very few forms of suffering that I enjoy witnessing. I am sympathetic to their plight and for the animals they are in charge of.

    And I am well aware that the suicide rate for people living on the land is on average far higher than in other areas of our society.

    It's just that I find myself in the position that I am no longer able to bear any more burdens of guilt on the behalf of others on top of what I already carry already.

    And after a lifetime of doing so... I don't believe it is right for anyone to expect me to.

    2 people found this helpful
  15. Ggrand
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    8 August 2018 in reply to Peppermintbach

    Hello, Peppy, UB, Birdy and all.

    I want to apologise to you all for stirring up your sadness, emotions around the farming industry..l didn't mean to do that. I'm really sorry..

    The farmers I'm talking about are are in my area, they are all free range farmers and care for their animals a lot and only sell enough of their livestock to support their families, these are not the huge farms that the animals are bred to be live transported overseas, I'm really sorry if I gave you that idea...

    I only mentioned this because I find it wrong that a bush walking trail or a beautification of a corner, or extensions on a bowling club etc....gets preference over people....

    kind and caring thoughts,

    Grandy........

    4 people found this helpful
  16. Birdy77
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    8 August 2018 in reply to Ggrand

    Hello Grandy 😊

    I assure you, dear Grandy, that you have done nothing of the sort.

    I went off on a tangent about much broader issues than the local issue you brought up.

    I totally agree with your point about the skewed prioroties in your local council area Grandy.

    Please do not apologise, I'm glad you voiced your thoughts and concerns.

    You have a compassionate heart and I am glad you spoke up.

    Hello Pepper, I agree with you about all that you said.

    Caring thoughts to all,

    🌻birdy

    2 people found this helpful
  17. Peppermintbach
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    9 August 2018 in reply to Birdy77

    Hi ChrissyStar and all,

    birdy: Thank you so much for your very understanding and gracious reply. I really hope my reply didn’t come across as some kind of lecture. I’m very sorry if it did...I’m feeling bad about it now but that’s my own fault. Sorry...

    I think you have a beautiful heart that cares very deeply for animals. So I know your posts all come from a deep well of empathy and love. Never stop being the wonderful, thoughtful, patient and compassionate person you are...if anything, the world needs more people like you...xoxo

    UB: I know you care. I never thought that you were “apathetic” or “indifferent” to farmers. I’m sorry, I probably wasn’t very clear in my posts...

    I get what you’re saying and I feel what you’re saying is understandable. Your heart is in the right place, and I know the environment and animal welfare means a lot to you

    Grandy: I think birdy replied to you perfectly so there’s little that I can add :) I also don’t feel you owe anyone here an apology. Absolutely nothing to be sorry for...

    You have not said or done anything “wrong”...please don’t stress or worry about it ;)

    As birdy said, you just wanted to speak up about the skewed priorities of your local council as you’re a very caring person. Keep on speaking up. I think it’s good to see this passionate side of you surfacing...

    Kindness and warmth to all...

    Pepper xoxo

    2 people found this helpful
  18. Birdy77
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    9 August 2018 in reply to Peppermintbach

    Dear Pepper,

    Thank you so much for your heartfelt and beautiful post.

    Please shake any bad feelings you had from your shoulders. I wish for you to have a beautiful, peaceful day with only good feelings in your heart my friend.

    That goes for everyone 😊

    Love,

    🌻birdy

    2 people found this helpful
  19. Just Sara
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    9 August 2018 in reply to Peppermintbach

    Hi everyone;

    Karen, I think it's 'grand' of you to talk about what's happening in your neck of the woods. I totally get that helpless feeling so thanks for bringing it up. Could I suggest either attending a council meeting or send in a written submission voicing your concerns, and maybe offering an idea or solution? Being heard might help you feel better. Just take care of that tender heart of yours ok. xo

    Birdy; I so appreciate the guts it took to out what you perceive as an unpopular stand on animal cruelty. I think you'll find though, most who don't financially benefit from such practices would agree with you. I most definitely do; we might disagree on a solution, but hey, at least we'll be talking. :-)

    When people can't find solutions to really big problems, some tend to turn off and leave it to others due to feeling helpless. I sort of get this too. Being brave and demanding to be heard is an amazing and precious quality in you; don't ever lose that. The right people do listen. xo

    UB; sometimes a rant is just what the Dr ordered, then other times being an interested communicator with active listening skills is more beneficial. I love your passion and commitment. xo

    Pepper; as always, considering everyone's views even if you disagree or are confused; the interested and caring peace keeper. I love this about you. I'm really looking forward to reading more about your opinions and ideas. Getting to know you...xo

    Recently on tv I watched as every household in one street of a Nordic town were putting up solar panels as a community driven project. They're over the moon their locality's contributing and benefiting as a group instead of just individuals and see it as a huge success; I do too. :-)

    Being solution driven is a nice way to be. I really like community development projects especially. There's strength in numbers, and seeing faces light up with pride and achievement is pretty nice too.

    If I could, I'd encourage the same thing in my community. Not being able to financially cope though makes me an unsuitable advocate. I'm doing what I can to get people's minds back in order and that's pretty special too.

    We're all amazing people..

    Sez xo

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  20. Peppermintbach
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    9 August 2018 in reply to Birdy77

    Hi Chrissystar and all,

    birdy: thank you for your very reassuring and kind post. You really are a beautiful person...really and truly...hugs and caring thoughts to you.

    As a loose aside, but I suppose it’s relevant to this thread...I think that I’ll be giving up dairy products. To be fair, it has been on my mind for a while but I’ve been admittedly very inconsistent with it. Been on and off as I alternated between dairy and soy/almond milk...

    Recently, I crossed paths with a group of animal rights activists handing out leaflets, talking to people, etc. Anyway, one of the activists approached me and we talked for a while about a range of things...the dairy industry was one of the topics he brought up.

    While he didn’t tell me anything that I didn’t already know, it did act as a prompt for me to get my act together and for me to make some sort of personal commitment in my own head...as opposed to my usual inconsistent “sometimes dairy and sometimes not” tendency. Not because he pressured me or anything like that but it was something that had already been on my mind...

    Anyway, I just wanted to share that anecdote with you. In many ways, I do look up to you as a personal reminder for me (and perhaps others too) to do better, be better, and most importantly, to try harder.

    Sez: Thank you so very much :) It’s lovely to see you here again. Good on that town for working together on the solar panels. Wonderful community spirit! I think that’s very inspiring.

    You help a lot of people, Sez. You generously share your personal experience(s) and learnt wisdom plus deep compassion and caring. We are all very blessed! H x H’s

    Pepper xoxo

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  21. Peppermintbach
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    11 August 2018

    Hi ChrissyStar and all,

    I thought that I would just very quickly share this with you all :)

    There is a book called Waste not: make a difference by throwing away less by Erin Rhoades, which some of you might be interested in.

    I figured, considering the subject matter of this thread, it seemed relevant :)

    Pepper xoxo

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  22. Birdy77
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    11 August 2018 in reply to Peppermintbach

    Hello ChrissyStar and all 😊

    Sez, thank you for your really encouraging and uplifting words. I felt buoyed and inspired by your supportive encouragement!! I really appreciate your sentiments.

    I do understand your thinking that I am mistaken in believing my views are unpopular. I agree that very few people would actively and vocally support "animal cruelty".

    However, I think that what I am talking about is a bit different.

    I think if my views were popular, the majority of the population would be vegan. You made the point that most people would be against the practices I described, with the exception being those who financially benefit from such practices.

    But the reason those people (and companies) financially benefit from the practices I described is because the general population funds it. The practices I described are just everyday happenings in animal agriculture, just another day in the process of producing meat, eggs and dairy to the paying masses.

    My view is that our society is built upon a system of inherent cruelty and injustice towards animals, cruelty and injustice that is seen as normal and just part of everyday "essential" living. As much as I can, I reduce my participation in that cruelty by living as a vegan.

    Thanks again for your encouragement to continue taking a stand for what I believe in. It means a lot. 😊 xo

    Pepper, do you know how much you made my day?! You can only guess, and then it would be an underestimation 😄 When i read your post i couldn't wait for my partner to come home so i could share the news with her!! There are so many yummy vegan cheeses etc available now, I really think you will find it fun, discovering new treasures. I applaud your new steps in your cruelty free journey.

    I know being in the kitchen cooking up a storm is not your much-loved go-to activity 😁 but, this morning I made a vegan baked "chevre" (a cheese usually made with goats milk), and it is truly amazing, if you want the recipe 😊 I have made it a few times, and once served it up to my partner's family (carnivorous south americans) and they gobbled it down and asked for the recipe. Who knew tofu could be so awesome?!

    Thank you so very much for your inspiring words Pepper and for being the change you wish to see in the world ❤ xo

    Love and light to all from me

    🌻birdy

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  23. Birdy77
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    11 August 2018 in reply to Birdy77

    Hi again everyone,

    I saw this on a wall poster and thought I'd share it here:

    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer

    " ... The activist of every single social justice issue, whether about slavery, segregation, women's suffrage, police brutality, LGBTQI discrimination, etc, have been accused of being too idealistic, too sensitive, or even delusional. This is not a new phenomenon. No one has ever sparked change by going along with the status quo. One day people won't think we're being too sensitive, they'll wonder how they were ever so calloused."

    Thanks Pepper for the title of that Waste Not book. I see she has a blog etc as well. Looks awesome 😊

    🌻birdy

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  24. Unbeliever
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    11 August 2018 in reply to Birdy77

    "Change don't come looking for friends".

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  25. Just Sara
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    11 August 2018 in reply to Birdy77

    Hi Birdy; waves to Pepper, UB, Grandy and Chrissy;

    What beautiful words; both to me and generally. When you speak with passion and commitment, it's striking. :-)

    If it's ok, I'd like to open up the Vegan issue for discussion. I looked at a Vegan lifestyle 20 yrs ago, but instead leaned more towards vegetarianism. I didn't do this as a political, lifestyle or peer driven choice, I did it for my health.

    The confusion re info on carnivores, herbivores and omnivores, then digestion, protein and carbs etc, was too much so I did a trial instead of being strict or obsessive.

    I had a vegan friend who helped me. She didn't push or lecture which was nice, just gently guided me when I became lost; and that's the thing Birdy - I did get lost because of choice and opinion. (There are so many out there)

    All the science in the world though couldn't replicate my natural instincts; the label thing confused. Original human communities hunted, gathered and ate whatever was available so, there was no choice.

    Then you read quite magnanimously; 'Yeah, and they didn't live for more than 30 yrs either! Look at us now!' Ergo, population explosion. I mean, are these geeks for real?

    (See, you're not the only one who's views might be controversial. I see living for 100 yrs as offensive to the planet and our children/society. That's for another thread though..)

    Sorry, I digress.

    Even though I ate really well, I still didn't know if I was doing the right thing for 'my' body 'on the day'. To egg, or not to egg, that was the question. Not even info from my blood type or ancestral heritage could address this problem.

    After a couple of satisfied yrs, I woke one morning craving beef. Not just any beef; a large steak. I called my friend who came over and told me to listen to my body. This sort of shocked me due to her vegan beliefs.

    We talked about our bodies being instinctive and learning how to listen to its signals. I've lived by 'feel' since then, not always good either. Simple carbs (especially sugar) are the devil's food!

    I'm craving a smoke as I type. I've given up btw! Ha! Who would'a thunk??? It's been a week and one day. Yay me!

    Anyway, my question to you is; "Is having your own chooks who roam freely ok? Surely eating their eggs wouldn't be seen as cruel; is it? Or a beloved family cow who provides milk?'

    These are the rules that confuse too. Would really appreciate your thoughts. :-)

    Sorry about the long post..

    Thankyou.. Sez x

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  26. Birdy77
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    11 August 2018 in reply to Just Sara

    Hi Sez 😊

    Thanks for your really interesting post.

    There's a lot in your post, and I won't address it all right now, but I'd like to answer the questions you asked me.

    In my opinion, eating eggs from beloved backyard chooks who have an awesome life is not cruel. We have chooks in our backyard and my partner eats them (I don't, but that's because I just choose not to) ... they are our pets and live in chook heaven, they will lay eggs daily regardless of whether anyone eats them ... so my partner eats their eggs, or we share them with our neighbours.

    About a beloved cow who provides milk: the only time a cow produces milk is when they've produced a calf (like human women, we lactate when we've given birth) ... the milk a cow produces is intended for her baby, and in order for humans to consume that milk, her calf must be removed from her at birth and her milk is then (in my eyes) "stolen".

    Let's say, for instance, you had a beloved cow in your back yard and she became pregnant (somehow?) and gave birth to a calf and you wanted to "share" the milk with that calf ... I guess that might be ok (I wouldn't, because I believe it is meant for the calf, but for arguments sake ...)

    As to "listening to your body" about cravings and the like, I understand that mentality. I would say: Ok, you are craving a big steak - if you can go and find a cow and slaughter her, and cook her up so that your bodily cravings are satisfied, then that may be your prerogative, if you felt that a morally ok thing to do.

    But to go to the supermarket and buy a prettily presented cut of meat that does not reflect the horror of where it can from, I find it a bit hard to justify.

    Just a few of my thoughts.

    I take this position because it feels right in my heart, after educating myself on in the reality of the dairy, egg and meat industry, not for political purposes, health reasons or to be a pain in everyone's butt!!

    It comes from a place of compassion and empathy for the voiceless.

    Love from me

    🌻birdy

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  27. Birdy77
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    11 August 2018 in reply to Birdy77

    Hi Sez and everyone,

    I have made a terrible error!!

    I said we have chooks in our backyard and my partner eats them.

    Perish the thought!!

    She eats their eggs. That's all.

    I also apologise if my last post came across harsh in any way, I certainly did not mean it as such.

    I just want to live my life the way that feels right to me, and let others make their own decisions based on their personal ethics and convictions.

    Peace to all.

    🌻birdy

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  28. Peppermintbach
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    13 August 2018 in reply to Birdy77

    Hi birdy (and all),

    A friendly wave to Sez, UB, Grandy, ChrissyStar and all :)

    Your words and encouragement made me smile. Thank you so very, very much. It also made me chuckle that you shared the “news” (lol) with your lovely partner. I think it’s beautiful how you both seem so supportive of each other and stand by what you believe in :)

    When it comes to a very deep and all encompassing compassion for animals, you’re the real deal. In my opinion, I feel sometimes human compassion can be somewhat limited...

    What I mean is some people’s (not all) compassion extends only to our own species or to people “like us”, that is, people who have had similar upbringings, share similar ideologies, etc...yes, I absolutely do understand and empathise with why this might be the case for some people; I just wish it was less common...

    Anyway, here you are extending your empathy and love to a cause so far removed from us (yet paradoxically they are so similar to us in other ways), and painstakingly expressing your views with grace, tact and caring despite how your heart must ache.

    In so many ways, when it comes to a profound love for animals, you’re the real deal...you really are...

    Now about food (awkward segue lol)...I must admit that I know very little about vegan/dairy-free cheese. I have only tried a couple that happened to be in veggie burgers. You’ll have to educate me. Feel free to share your tasty chèvre recipe :)

    So far, giving up dairy products hasn’t been too bad. I think it’s doable but it just requires a little more attentiveness, planning and research :)

    Last weekend, I spent considerable time at a health food store that sells a variety of homemade and local products. When I was studying the ingredients in various products, I was surprised that most of their dark chocolate range contains milk/milk solids.

    I expected their milk chocolate products to contain milk but I was surprised about the dark chocolate there. That said, I was happy to find some dairy-free dark chocolate coated berries and truffles there :)

    The health food aisle at supermarkets is also a good option for dairy free products. A lot of the chips in that aisle, for example,
    are dairy free and/or vegan. So that was convenient :) Plus there’s also of course coconut oil, soy milk, almond milk, etc.

    So far, it hasn’t been too bad. Eating out with friends might present some interesting challenges (lol) but it’s not a huge issue in the grand scheme of things...

    Love,

    Pepper xoxo

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  29. Peppermintbach
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    13 August 2018 in reply to Birdy77

    Hi birdy and all (waves to Chrissystar and all),

    Sorry, I forgot to thank you for sharing the Schopenhauer quote plus the poster :)

    In short, I agree with those sentiments. True about how no positive change would occur if we all upheld “tradition” purely for tradition’s sake. Sometime, not always, I believe there’s a fine line between tradition and oppression or tradition and cruelty...

    I personally think it’s healthy not to take any ideology for granted. It’s healthy to reflect, challenge and question in my opinion...

    Love,

    Pepper xoxo

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  30. Birdy77
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    14 August 2018 in reply to Peppermintbach

    Dear Pepper ❤

    Thank you so much for your really beautiful post. You lifted my spirits and warmed my heart.

    I will most certainly give you some ideas about vegan cheeses and other non dairy things ... I found a Vegan Cheese Kit by Mad Millie at the Cruelty Free Shop (available online) a really easy way to start making my own cheezes at home, if you're interested in giving it a go. I just started out making my own cream cheeses and ricotta from very basic recipes from the internet.

    Pinterest will be your best friend for a while 😊. Pinterest is my BFF, we can share.

    Keepin' It Kind blog by Kristy Turner is awesome, she wrote the chevre recipe (I have her book "But I could never go vegan!"

    Brands of cheeses to try:

    "botanical cuisine: (made in Collingwood, Vic)

    "damona non-dairy cheeses" (made in Fawkner, Vic.)

    The Vegan Dairy (made in Mount Martha, Vic)

    Are all great Australian made products to try.

    Supermarket brands I use and find really good for pizzas and the like are: Sheese and biocheese.

    I can suggest other things later.

    I just really wanted to thank you for your perfectly uplifting post.

    More later.

    Lots of love.

    🌻birdy xo

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