Dear Ross,

I distracted myself by doing paperwork this afternoon and then watched ''Mama Mia". Oh the songs in that, the words, describe my pain and loss... I guess millions have gone through and are going through the same as me. Of course it had a happy ending, after 20 years of loneliness.

I guess I can wait for my happy ending or ... not 🙁

Is there a way to save these pages and beautiful kind words? Would i just copy and paste then in to a word document?

I never want to forget the kindness of strangers.

Good night and I hope the sun shines warmly on all of us tomorrow and gently nourishes our souls.

Zenobia

Divorce is no big deal if the marriage is childless, but when children are involved they get hurt.

You should not have become involved with a married man with kids, you did the wrong thing and you are now paying the price.

I know that sounds harsh but I have seen this first hand.Many years ago when I was working as a labourer building houses my boss left his wife and ran off with a younger woman he met at the gym.

I witnessed how much pain and confusion it brought to his then twelve year old daughter who simply could not understand what the hell was going on.

As it was karma kicked in, A couple of years later the gym girl gave him the flick and the divorce cost him lots of money and he ended up living in a rented house.

Two things you can take from this, firstly if this bloke was keen on you there are bound to be others so that should give you some confidence and secondly stay away from married men with kids because one way or another people get hurt.

Hi again zenobia

Re: "I was wondering too... is this who he really is? Is he selfish and I didn't notice because we were so in love? Has the decision to return to his wife and ignore my feelings so totally a selfish act or does he feel he has no choice?"

From this males viewpoint he isnt selfish and the love he has had is genuine. But, he cannot risk talking to you for any length of time because he has made a very tough decision and he knows that you could get upset, he could get upset and above all the promises he has made to his wife will be broken. You love him for many reasons and I guess his genuine attitude is one of them. In order to keep his promises he cant contact you. Release him to the life he's chosen.

This is so tough on you but, love can be replaced with love.

I've proven it 3 times now. Force yourself to go on that next date and see what happens.

Tony WK

How you going this morning Zenobia? hey, look at me...."you didn't do the "wrong thing"". If anyone did "the wrong thing" it was your lover. He was the married one with other commitments, not you. (I believe you were unattached at the time, hope I got that right)....anyway...long story short my dear girl......the last thing you need is any kind of "guilt" to carry along with your heartache. DON'T FEEL GUILTY. You loved another person with all your heart.....that's all. And while not able to declare or continue to openly display his love for you any longer - he probably loved you dearly as well. Hold onto that, hold your head up high and bravely march into your future. I understand. xo

Hi Zenobia, I hope you enjoyed the movie ,it is good to watch a feel good movie it is a nice distraction which we all need sometimes especially one with a happy ending yours is coming it will arrive when you least expect it ,have a great day ,best wishes Ross.

Yes Broken biscuits you are very harsh.

Of course hindsight says I should not have gotten involved. However, after years of friendship, of watching the turmoil of his marriage, of seeing him in tears because of his violent dominating wife's actions. Of all his work colleagues advising him that it is time to move on, after he admitted he was a victim of domestic violence. Of him having the fear of what their violent, tumultuous relationship was doing to the kids, he described them as going totally silent and hide when they fight. Then he began to develop an exit plan. He anticipated having custody of the kids because she is so irrational even forgetting to feed them.

His marriage was over as far as he was concerned. I was the only friend he had, He has no family in Australia, only hers. His wife has ensured that he is always close to home. His wife has made him turn down work when he was unemployed and a fantastic opportunity came up for him when one of our managers put in a good word for him.

I did not break up that marriage. I know this and for that I take no blame no matter what you say.

He has such a fear of her, she says 'get your hair cut' and he does. She constantly insults him and once told me how stupid he was in front of him. And yet he is the most intelligent gentle kind man I have ever met. His fear translated to total capitulation when his wife discovered that we had let our friendship go too far. She drives him to and from work now and took his phone off him and gave him hers so she can track him. His manager at work now has to speak to his wife to get him to call her now as no one has the phone number of the phone she gave him.

You know, she thought he had visited a prostitute once and she thought it was hilarious and giggled for days. But knowing he had a real relationship threatened her control and now he has decided to stay with her.

There were many times I advised him that they get counselling and if not as a couple then at least individually . She is obviously suffering too but has refused every suggestion he has ever made because he is apparently 'too stupid' to know what he is talking about. Of course she has good points too.

Her retired parents seem to have the same relationship where her father is also completely dominated and sits quietly all day not speaking to anyone.

To be cont.

So broken biscuits, not only was he the light on my horizon, I was his beacon too. Do you honestly believe that his children are in a good situation now? He told me recently that everything in their house is now broken. I am so worried and scared for ALL of them. So much of my grief is also fear for them.

I had said many many times to him, that if he could be happy with his wife I would walk away. Even now, if I thought he was happy, I would still be grieving and feeling sorry for myself but would not have a fear for his and the kids well being and how far she will go.

So broken biscuits, I am paying a huge huge price and I should have just stayed his friend but we made a mistake and the price he is paying is much higher!

Thanks for your perspective though, it is exactly what I have been fighting against as the other woman.

Zenobia.

Hi Ross and Moonstruck,

They have published my posts out of order but guess what?

I am OK with broken biscuits accusations because although it is exactly what our society says, the people on this forum have reflected a totally different attitude. An attitude that should reflect across our community.

It is the love and kindness that I have found here that has given me the strength to argue back and defend myself. His harsh words did not hurt me at all because I think you have all given me the confidence and perspective I need to be able to get on with day to day life. I am just getting by but nothing he said sent me backwards, if at all, I am more determined than ever to get on in life without guilt and blame.

Yes I admit, hindsight would have probably led us down a different path. We should have waited for his relationship to have formally ended first, but guess what? Love is a terribly overwhelming force and we gave in.

Thanks my friends,

Zenobia xxx

Yes moonstruck, I am free to love whom I choose, although it's not often a choice is it?

🙂

Hi Zenobia and All,

Relationships in general can be difficult. Some last a life time and some are fleeting for one reason or another. For me it has been important to realise that I need to love and care for myself.

Through experiencing the pain, hurt, bitterness and sadness of others, I have decided to try to accept what happens in friendships. Love and kindness may be fleeting, it was there in the first place it is a huge bonus, if it disappears it is sad and the memories can be bitter sweet.

Falling in love with an already married person is so hard. Do we purposely set out to do this? I don't think so. Sometimes it just happens.

We humans all desire love, care, affection and a feeling that we are special to another person, if that be a partner, friend, family or our parents.

Break ups, separations and being distance from people we love and care for can be heartbreaking no matter what the relationship.

How many students fall in love with their teachers, or people with their ministers of religion, a doctor who cared for you in hospital, or a nurse, your boss, the bar person, and so on.

Many marriages fall apart if there are children involved or not, if there are extra marital partners or not. It is hard for all involved. Every person involved needs to be acknowledged and assisted so they can move on.

I've know relationships with children that have broken up. Sometimes the children are better off if there is less fighting and bitterness. Other times the agony and pain is tremendous.

There is hurt and there is hope as well.

Wishing you all a sense of peace and reconciliation over your choices in life.

From Mrs. D.

Hi Broken Biscuit Blue,

I've noticed you have quite strong feelings about this situation and have shared stories about incidents with other people you have known relating to broken relationships.

If you don't mind me asking have you been hurt yourself in a similar fashion?

Growing up my parents fought a lot, it was very distressing. My Mum used to take off, more for help with her depression I believe than to have a rendezvous with another guy, but I could be wrong.

At times I wished Mum would stay away and never return. I wished Dad would meet a different lady and we would have peace in our house so the fighting would stop.

My parents are still together. The fighting and tension continues. I wonder if they could have both had happier lives if they had split up. I feel so uneasy and ill when I enter the family home.

Over the years I have though of leaving my husband. Is it any easier with out children? No not at all. The emotional turmoil is still the same. There are no children who may have their lives in turmoil but the emotional pain is the same for adults.

Unfortunately our society is full of blended families. Are those children any happier or sadder than families living in dysfunctional families of long term married couples?

Maybe some countries customs have it right when a male can have more than one wife. It should be equal though, women should be able to have more than one husband in that case!

Either way, going back to the topic of this thread, loosing a person you love dearly can hurt extremely deeply no matter how that loss happens.

Cheers from Mrs. D.

Dear Broken Biscuit Blues~

I feel that while you are of course entitled to your views on this or any other manner you method of expression may have stepped outside the guidelines for Forum posting as found here:

https://www.beyondblue.org.au/get-support/online-forums/community-rules

May I suggest you might care to refresh your memory prior to continuing with this matter,

Respectfully

Croix

Dear Broken Biscuit, I would like to echo Croix's point , That you are indeed entitled to your views ,and it sounds like this post did hit a chord with you however we should be mindfull that we can be, if not sympathetic,at least empathetic to others situations .

Regards Ross.

I agree with Croix.

This is not a forum of debate on morals. Its a forum of understanding and support. In this case it should be a haven for Zenobia to share her pain so she can recover better.

Tony WK

Hi Zenobia, could be a time to pop on Mama mia again eh,have a great night ,Ross

Thanks Ross,

It's people like you who out the kind in humankjnd.

Have a lovely evening to.

Z x

Dear Zenobia~

I hope you are ok, if you have a moment please read my initial post (the 25th) to you again, it is as true now as then.

You avatar reminds me I really should read some Alwyn Hamilton (plus listen to Mama Mia:)

Croix

Dear Croix,

Thanks for directing me back. I did reread it and actually read them all again after I felt attacked. I think that is why, although bothered by it all, I was able to fight it rather than turn into a miserable victim. My avatar was something I found online to go with Zenobia, the admirable strong intelligent fair Queen of Palmyra. Someone who can only inspire strength and resilience. This avatar shows so much power, independence and strength, something I find is coming back to me a little every day.

I still have this problem of obsessive thoughts. I just can't stop thinking about him. Every single second. During every activity, somehow everything I see, do, watch, read comes straight back to him. The ache is still so much there and as with grief, it is hard to conceive that life still goes on, like normal for everyone else.

My father must be feeling that now as I did when my hubbie died. I looked around at the world while I walked like zombie, couldn't understand that people still went to work, shopping, put fuel in their cars...my husband was dead and the world just carries on like normal. After the funeral, with invisible grief in their hearts, they went back to their homes, to their lives.... mine had changed forever. Everytime for about three months, if a car pulled up outside, our baby toddled to the door "dadad, dadad...."

The rest of the world continues, those closest to the deceased, those living with them every day, put on a brave face and try to do the same. It was sixteen years before I accepted a date again. And now, a second real love came in to my life and again it is gone.

I take hope from you suggesting it might come again. Perhaps it will... perhaps it won't. But life still goes on, and sometimes on and on and on.

I will not say never again because I know life has a way of surprising you, of making you think,"well who would have thunk?" Coincidences and wonderful moments make life worth it.

If I need strength and inspiration, I need not look any further than the courage and optimism my daughter shows every single day as she struggles to take a breath some days.

With genuine love and gratitude, I thank you all here, (even broken biscuit blues for showing me that I will meet opposition still but will be able to cope with it) for all your sharing, support and inspiration and it doesn't feel like empty platitudes.

BTW, it was Gilmore Girls for me tonight...

😃 Zenobia x

Hi Z,

Ive had 4 long term relationships all iver 7 years duration.

Each time I felt I'd never find love like that again.

My wife now and I got married in 2011. But we knew each other since 1986. I had matchmade her with my brother in law. Then 2008 we were both single. She has been the live of my life. No one compares with her.

Yes you will find love again. You will succeed, why? How do I know this?.

Your last post....

Tony WK

Hi Zenobia,

I have read your thread and my heart goes out to you. So much heartache is such a short period of time. I'm sending you a big warm hug to start off with.

I have a niece with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. She was diagnosed a while ago after years of unexplainable problems so i empathise with you having to deal with this also and i do hope that research can find something to combat this silent disease.

Re your situation, it takes 2 to tango, you are not to blame, no one is to blame. If he was happily married and it was a meaningless fling, that is different perhaps. I agree with what others have said that his wife will eventually push him too far and he will leave the marriage. What happens if that occurs no one knows. You deserve happiness, please don't give up on that.

Re "I was wondering too... is this who he really is? Is he selfish and I didn't notice because we were so in love? Has the decision to return to his wife and ignore my feelings so totally a selfish act or does he feel he has no choice?" This is a good point as you didn't live together you will never know who he really is. i too thought i found a wonderful soulmate after my separation but when things didn't work out i saw the real side of him, controlling, abusive, nasty. We have a child but thank god we did not marry or live together.

I also divorced when my kids were younger, yes it is hard on them but better than being in a loveless relationship and arguing, kids pick up on this and at the end of the day as long as both parents love and care for them, that is the important thing. You have not caused harm to his child, you didn't purposely go looking to break up a marriage, it was already broken.

cmf x

Zenobia

What a difference 6 days make on this thread,

I think it comes down to listening to others and not judging other people.

Zenobia I love your picture and you writing. You write from the heart with compassion. I don't think labelling ourselves or others ever achieves anything.

I like the old saying , maybe clichéd, walk a mile in my shoes.

Take care

Quirkywords

Hi Zenobia, How are you doing today darling ,remember never say never, you do have the strength and the courage you show that to your daughter every day take solice in that ,and hope you have a great day today, get out in the sun if you can,take care ,Ross

Hi Zenobia,

Condolences on the loss of your mother & I am happy you felt her with u in that moment as it's something no one can take away from you....

Even through your own heartache & difficulties u have been a beacon of light for others. I thank u for that. You are intelligent, wise,beautiful, fair & in no way to blame.

I personally believe you would have given him & his children so much more....

Let the universe decide his fate & hopefully when he comes running back to u, you would have moved on with another soulmate.

Just something to think about x

Never lose hope, you are one of the good ones. This man sounds like he's listening to his head, the voice of a stranger & not his heart in this situation...

Fly free and find those wings again....

Hey Tony,

I am going to hold you to that promise! I've decided I won't be leaving this forum...ever. Even when all is well again (yes I believe it will be all good again) I can't leave my new friends. I love your love story. It does actually inspire hope.

Dear cmf,

Your life seems quite complicated and I would love to hear how your niece is doing. Which type of EDS does she have? They think my daughter's is vascular but we won't know for quite a while yet as the geneticist waiting list is 6-12 months...

I agree that a good calm divorce for kids is often much better than a long term tumultuous relationship. We will have to wait and see how and what happens there. I am usually a very good judge of character and that we have been friends for so long makes me think that he is actually a good person in a terrible terrible predicament that he can't see any alternative possibilities

Hi quirkywords,

It is only a cliche if it has lost its meaning... walk a mile in my shoes should be something everyone does before passing a judgement. Honestly, I thought I was one of the most moral and ethical people on this planet, even had the Ethics Centre phone number in my phone. That naiive me would never have dreamt that I would have an affair with a married man and only last year did I judge someone for exactly that same thing. I will not ever judge someone again without first trying those shoes on for size first.

Dearest Ross,

Big hug from me to you today. Not one tear shed today! I did go out and work in the garden for a couple hours and although it was only 13 degrees, the sun was warm on my face. Going to go out for dinner with my daughter tonight.

Hello Steph,

Such lovely kind words, no wonder I am going to stay on this forum forever. Thank you for your kindness and encouragement. I absolutely love the expression you used... that he is listening to his head, the voice of a stranger.

Perfect. I hope he listens to his heart one day and even if it is not with me that he does find someone to love him as he really does deserve.

Yes time spent with you all has been so wonderful, inspiring and productive! Maybe I won't need as many counselling sessions as I thought I would.

Have a great evening everyone and don't let the dark of night extinguish your flame. I won't.

Zenobia x

Have a lovely dinner,Ross

Bad bad bad day today... can't talk and can't offer anyone else any inspiration.

Spoke to him today and heard things I just don'twant to hear.. I will probably tell you lots later.

Then took my beautiful brave daughter to the cardiologist who has organised an emergency appointment with a respiratory specialist tomorrow....

Too too much....

Dear Zenobia~

Circumstances as well as people seem to come with ups and downs. I am sure you know you have a reservoir of strength, but I'm not sure you know how deep and capable it is. You will deal with these things, even if more taxing than the bbb matter.

You can and do offer inspiration and example, no matter if you are up or down.

I hope that the specialist is immediately useful and your daughter improves greatly - and that you feel supported here at least.

Croix

Hi Zenobia,I am sorry to hear you had a bad day you do have the strength it will come when you need it most I hope all goes well with the specialist and you get the assistance you need ,

Best wishes Ross.

hello Zenobia, it's great to hear your ups and downs, and as they say 'there's movement at the station'.
I think that men are not able to overcome a breakup either in a r/ship or marriage, it was hell for me, and for RO63 the same, but women find it easier to overcome any of this, but this will depend on the circumstances, so the thought 'if only' keeps going through a males mind or 'maybe if I did' keep plaguing our thoughts and often get chastised to just give it up, and move on.
I'm sure this chap still has feelings for you, he can't just wipe these away, but they are definitely hidden from his wife, however if he is under too much control he will rebel against his wife, because nobody wants to be told what they should be thinking about or what they need to do, he won't have any flexibility.
He may not want to move away from his wife because it will become a messy separation/divorce, but personally I can't his marriage lasting from all that has been said, because his wife is too dominating, he can't even pop his head out the window to get a breath of fresh air, because she will be asking him why.
I don't agree with Broken Biscuits, I'm sorry to say, that any divorce no matter whether you have children or not does mean a hell of a lot, there is always one partner/spouse that is affected, and would argue this point until I'm black and blue in the face, plus if a marriage isn't working then you go looking for someone to confide in, and whether a r/ship begins, so be it.
It's lovely talking with you, but I also am concerned for your daughter. Geoff.