Hey SubduedBlues.

Hindsight exists to help those who haven't been there yet.

We've had some frank and honest discussions about all of that. Damn I was offended when she suggested outsourcing sex and affection rather than extending herself. I've asked those questions directly though (do you want to see other people? Do you want someone to join us? Male? Female?). I take some consolation in the openness of our discussion - but it doesn't solve the problem.

Hey Jacko,

Really appreciate the response.

Elaborating on what I do to reduce tension:
- Avoid any approaches, hugs, affection, suggestion or discussion of sex
- Provide plenty of massage and drawing a clear boundary that it's not sexual (most days)
- Go to lengths to make sure I never show the slightest sign of sexual frustration (apart from occasional boilovers every three months or so when I hit a limit and can't not talk about it because I dip into a depression)
- Guide her through periods of immense stress (Study, work, stuff with the kids) where I have to absorb what can almost be described as panic attacks/manic episodes. It's tough, but I wear it because she needs the support. This will happen probably once a month. In bad patches 2 or 3 times in a week.
- Push her to go and see/hang out with her friends, see her family. Happy to look after kids to enable as much of this as she wants. (She's incredibly social)

Basically all the stuff that I think a supportive partner should do. The fact my (sexual) needs aren't being acknowledged makes it really hard. The sleeping with other people suggestion was not a throwaway comment. It was after a very strained patch in which she felt it was the only 'logical' option left.

We hard a very raw discussion two days ago - after I posted above. She asked me what I actually want. I responded with: I want to be touched, loved, physcial affection both sexual and non-sexual, sex approx once a week is what my sex drive is at, etc. She told me point blank that I'm just not going to get what I want.

We went through what a lot of her blockers are (her mum left her dad for this reason; she had some horrible relationships and especially early when we were seeing each other we frequently had sex because she was scared I would leave her). This summation of it all is that sex just is not a priority, not a drive for her. She doesn't lust for others, she doesn't lust for me. (ouch).

But - in the interest of mental health. I've done a lot of meditation and exercise in those two days. This helped a lot, as well as the open conversation It's weird to have a relationship that so honest and open, but so void of affection and physical intimacy.

Fellow thinkers,
I spent almost half an hour reading through some of the messages left on this situation, and it is astonishing how many men find themselves stuck here, and the effect it has on his ego.
Steven1, your honesty on such a touchy subject is a credit to you - well done!
The underlying message here was the communication lapse between the two, and what the best way to make her feel loved is.
Im intrigued as to what was the outcome? It has since been almost 2 years, has anything changed? Did you find the counselling sessions beneficial in the long term?

My thoughts are with you and your family

I think hindsight exists for those that have had and lost. And we wonder if we had said/done something different how things may have turned out different.

Sorry if I upset you with my previous message, it was not my intent.

Not everyone attributes intimacy to sex. I think you may need to find out how to be intimate with her without sex. Only then might you find yourself in a position to lead her back to it.

DB she's pretty much told you to give up trying and tolerate the situation, i.e.: no sex. Which naturally is of course, quite confronting. Mine did the same to me. It's supposed to be an attraction issue. So, if she's not attracted to you then she's not going to want to have sex with you. But there's no many variables which offset this, such as past critical moments in the relationship (like bad stuff that's gone down that hasn't been dealt with), history of sexual abuse in previous relationships, etc.

I think you mentioned you've done quite a bit of research on this subject. Are you aware or have you read the resources I mentioned? If not, they are quite revealing. It sounds like you need to take the red pill. Google it. I can't remember if you are married or had kids but - it sounds like she did the old bait and switch. Lots of sex to suck you in then nothing. Or like I said there's an unhealthy sexual history on her part, or her hormones are out of whack, or she's seeing someone else, or some other mental issue. You say she's incredibly social but you have to push her to do things? Blow ups once a month sounds like hormones. But from what you've described you're doing too much beta stuff. STOP. Cut out the massages for starters. Stop talking about sex. Focus on you for the meantime.

If you're married, got kids, hurting bad, and want more from your marriage get help with it. That's why I suggest Athol's books to at least get you thinking about why this might be happening (I mean you might as well stop doing what's not working and try something else). The thing is, once you take the red pill you can't undo it. You might not be able to rectify your situation (i.e.: get what you want from your current marriage), but you can prepare yourself, better yourself and get into position for a better life with someone who will meet your needs.

I'd also Google "The family alpha"

Had this situation with first wife in mid 20's. She was in total denial that there was even a problem, and managed to find more than one counsellor-type who agreed with her position. Religious hangups no doubt contributed, but when you're in love to try to accommodate and you think all things are possible... After two years of honest effort to even get my point of view heard, I walked. It did leave me with some pretty warped ideas about women, relationships and myself - fortunately I was able to have better relationships since. I've stopped beating myself up about it eventually too, 40+ years on...

Agree with aegidius. You can try and fix things but if they don't work sometimes you have to walk. I hope you had better progress with subsequent relationships.

in the future I'll be quite clear about sex, it's importance and high frequency. It'll be more than once a week that's for sure.

For me the writing was on the wall years before kids and marriage but loyalty kept me here. 13 years on her excuses are still just that and I'm at breaking point. Staying at home looking after the kids. Lack of sleep and no one to talk to makes me volatile and less forgiving. Anger is through the roof but I need to contain it for the sake of our kids.

It's no consolation but an interesting insight, but for whatever reason there is a book in our house called The Secret Language of Birthdays which I have recently reopened. I'm not one for astrology but this book is frighteningly accurate, possibly due to it being based on research rather than reading stars. And there it was in plain english: "career dedicated" and "emotionally blocked" amongst other accuracies. As I said, it's no consolation but if anyone here would like to amuse themselves and dig a little deeper into their other half's (or your own) character. I wasn't amused as i've lost my sense of humour but I hope it can help someone understand their partner or yourself. My disclaimer though, I found it accurate but you may not.

Hey Apollo Black,

Thanks for the post. You've covered a bunch of thoughts I've had at various times. Let me give an update to everyone for the sake of the board and to actually bring a bit of positivity to this place. I took a lot of your advice before I read your post, if that makes sense. I posted here in a moment of despair, but have spent a lot of this year working on putting myself first and making myself happy.

Since I had the last direct, open honest flare up argument with my wife her whole demeanour has changed. We've really made sex and intimacy different things.

But here's what I'm realising it boils down to: most of the people in this deep hole that I've been in so many times feel that "I would be so much happier if I had the sex and intimiacy in my life that I deserved". I was verbally slapped by a business mentor of mine when I said as much about a work scenario. he said to me "WRONG ORDER! You will get what you deserve (sales, promotions, opportunities) if you make yourself happy! People respond to confidence, intruige and excitement and run from neediness. So make yourself happy, get excited and interestied in your work again and you'll be amazed at what comes your way"

This bolded part was a massive reminder that you can do exactly the same action on two different occasions, with different motivation and mindset and have a completely outcome.

The discussions on here and with my wife have helped a lot. And being reminded of this stuff was great. I just spent a week away with my wife and kids, and instead of being resentful and hurt for the whole trip I'd spent a few days planning and working out a bunch of other (non sex) stuff in life that I wanted. Not status crap like money and job offers, but things that are genuinely fun and thrilling. My wife and I were genuinely intimate for the whole trip. It was amazing. It's what I've been missing and craving - and pursuing it directly turns out to be the very worst way of getting it.

Last night I tried to initiate sex with her and instead of shutting me down she tried to go with it for a while and then said "look I'm sorry - my mind is just racing. I can't get into it. If you were doing all of this two hours ago it would have worked but right now I just can't stop my mind racing. I'm so sorry.".

Then she said "Look - I know that's really crap for you. Really hard for you and I'm really sorry."

And for some reason - I really didn't mind.

Hi all,

It's 3 months since I posted and I thought I would share a few things.

The headline is that the frequency of sex hasn't changed but everything else has.

I feel great, I feel confident, I feel strong, things are working really well for me. Athol Kay's books were recommended to me and the first one I read was a slap to the face (The Married Man Life Sex Primer). (I also thought it had a lot of dangerous ideas that could be very easily misinterpreted by someone with depression - so beware).

The other one is the Mindful Attraction Plan - now this book I recommend to everyone with the slightest caveat. I wish I could summarise all the gold nuggets this book has. But ulimately - work on everything else, sex is the final 'success metric' of a mutual relationship.

I've basically spent a lot of time on myself. I've always been fit but this year I've hit the gym a lot and got my diet in a good shape and I'm feeling great. Got myself a new wardrobe, a new job in April just after I was posting in here. Things were still a long way off where I wanted it to be, but so much better than it was.

I've stopped blaming/being angry at my wife for not wanting sex. Athol Kay's books really emphasise that your partner doesn't choose whether or not to want to have sex with you. They either want it or they don't - so do all these things for yourself and you'll actually be more appealing to your partner.

There are some relationship dynamics that had to change. I let myself get steamrolled constantly. I let my wife make decisions on what we were doing each evening, each weekend, etc. As the year has progressed that's shifted.

It's also clear that there's a real medical issue here. My wife is on two medications that negatively affect sex drive: one to control severe menstrual bleeding and anti-depressants. But the layer on top of that was that sex had become a battle field. I would get horny and fired up and try and initiate, and my wife wouldn't feel like it and I would blow up with anger, hurt, frustration, whatever. Looking at it from her view it's no wonder she didn't even want to go near it.

I actually don't care as much about sex. I still want it - but there's so much more affection now. Cuddles on the couch, kissing, she even organised a couples massage course for both of us (and she subsequently massaged me). This is huge. As much as my sex needs have been neglected her need to be able to show risk-free affection has been neglected for years and years.

Hi Deep Breath,

Thanks so much for sharing, I have really appreciated what you have written.

It is important to look at yourself and your relationship as a whole, all parts of a person go together to help create unity.

Well done to you for wanting to get the best out of yourself, your relationship and for realising your wife may have issues out of her control due to the medication she is requiring. I am so pleased things are looking up for you both!

Cheers from Mrs. D.

Hi Deep Breath

What a kind and considerate post. You are a wonderful and decent guy with a seriously great attitude.

Major kudos to you for the TLC you have and are providing to your wife

You are a legend

my kind thoughts for you both

Paul

Awesome man. I envy you because I never got the opportunity to progress as you have with my marriage intact. Unfortunately you can't MAP BSC, as Athol puts it...

If you ever need it, I highly recommend a 1 hour coaching call with Athol. He's a great guy. His Youtube presence is much greater now and as he says, he's learnt a lot sine the Primer, and he's coming out with some new books.

Keep us updated on things!!!

Hey Apollo :-)

Always great to see you. Hope you have been doing reasonably well...My Best..Paul

Hey Paul, thank you. Good to hear from you too. Hope you're going ok. I don't get back on here much anymore as I find it a little draining energy-wise. I mean I really love to try and help people however it's like a never ending vortex, plus as I've said many times before, this site just isn't set up well enough to keep people coming back. They at least need to let people know when posts have been responded to....it's like waiting for a response using Australia Post....

Hey Appollo - yeah it's still early days to be sure, but it's amazing how much of Athol Kay's advice echos exactly what my wife has said to me over the years. We're lucky that we are very clear/blunt communicators. We speak our minds and are very direct. This situation was a long term drifting in the wrong directions.

Sorry it didn't work out for you. It still might not work out for me, but all signs are really good at the moment. I no longer feel like I'm carrying a big ugly weight or fighting against strong external forces. Just focusing on building momentum every time an opportunity presents for me to do the right thing by myself and the relationship.

Hey Apollo

I understand where you are coming from.

Management are currently working on a new forum platform as we speak...including tagging..shout outs etc :-)

I hear you on the draining part...Im the same...only have a limited source of mental energy

My Best Apollo. Paul

I have read many posters comments on here and am a bit appalled about some of what i read. If one gets married in a Christian marriage, but admittedly many don't, then the commitment is that 2 people become one. That means that they share each others bodies, & that means that the sexual desires of each person need to be met (within reason). That is what one is committing to. So, to go into a marriage, & then one partners says "not really interested anymore"........ but absolutely demands that you remain faithful, when the second party has not been faithful to the first party in meeting their sexual needs, then that is just bizarre logic. I had extremely high sex drive & my wife's has always been very low, eventually we became like "2 mates living in the same house". The subject has been discussed many times, short improvements occur but never a satisfactory improvement for any length of time. If the person not wanting sex has a medical reason for it, then that's different but merely not wanting for no apparent reason, that's not acceptable. Unfortunately i don't have all the answers, people who meet my wife would assume that because she is well groomed & sexy that she is having wonderful sex regularly but i only wish that that was in fact the case. We even had arguments about sex on the honey moon. We get on very well on most other areas of our relationship. I know the rejection, it absolutely kills you, makes you feel that what you want is dirty etc. I would never ever treat a spouse like that, even if i really wasn't in the mood.

Each morning i make my wife tea in bed, on average 6 days a week. She does not eat breakfast so tea is all that she requires. I clean up the kitchen most nights, & cook about 2 to 3 times a week. I clean the vacuum cleaner & vacuum the house , clean the pool filter, the dishwasher filter, wash the cars, get them serviced, take the children to work as required, bring the washing in if i get home first, clean the tumble dryer filter out as required. At least once a month, i get told how little I do & basically "dont really do anything". :)

I'm confused about how all this helping out around the house actually makes a difference. I don't do it to get anything in return, i just do it because it needs to be done.

Try going on strike for a couple of weeks and let her see what you actually do (or what happens when it isn't done).

Sometimes being too good is a turn-off. I'll leave that with you.

I've thought a lot about the idea of being 'too good' and it being a turn off.

The fact is I like being helpful, I like providing, I like making sure things are tidy/good/neat. It's GOOD for a relationship to do this for someone.

It's really only part of the equation.

I'm going to reference Athol Kay like Apollo has referred me to before. Don't play the subordinate role. Clean up and do all that stuff because you choose to, because you think it's the right thing to do - not because it's expected of you. You can do excatly the same action for a different reason (one of personal strength) and have a different result.

But really - there's this ridiculous prevailing myth that if a guy just does a bit of cleaning up his wife/partner will want to jump his bones.

Arousal = excitement.

Cleaning = support.

Excitement without support = erratic unreliable but fun partner

Support without excitement = companionship style relationship.

You want a mix of both. The question should be "what can deliver more of?" not "how much cleaning do you do?"

I feel compelled to share a bit more here because I'm finally in a really good headspace after fighting this issue for so long.

I know exactly what it's like, to be rejected night after night, to do everything you can to create the right environment for intimacy, to go to a bit of effort to be noticed, to go weeks and weeks without so much as a kiss or a hold of the hands. I've been really deep in the hole with this on a kind of cycle for years.

It's often the really generous supportive guys that go through this. Guys who are selfless to a fault. The guys (I suppose this happens to women as well? ) that see an intimacy problem and try and solve it with, care, closeness, and encouraging more intimacy.

My advice is to take the pressure off the intimacy. It's really unhealthy to dwell so much on a problem. It's bad for you. It's consuming and really difficult, but you gotta start nudging things in a different direction.

Do fun things. Things you find genuinely fun. Look after yourself - for you, not for the goal of having more sex. Getting fit, eating well, going out, trying new things feels good. The more time you spend doing this the less time you'll spend sitting on the couch next to your wife feeling hurt and furious that she hasn't had sex with you for 67 days (and if you're like me you'll know the exact number of days since). Catch up with friends regularly. You'll still have downs but they'll be less frequent and less intense.

If you feel completely neglected, don't neglect yourself as well! Sure - nothing replaces sexual intimacy. It's a really special and exciting part of life, but it's only part of life. Most likely your wife doesn't enjoy rejecting you and seeing you hurting. She would probably prefer to flick a switch and change the situation too, but when there is so much intensity around sex (including when you intensely try to make sure everything is perfect) it's hard for those hormones to start flowing.

Agree with you Apollo ! I think DB should stop humiliating himself and start looking at things that might make his life better .

Hi All !

I just want to leave my support here to all of you ( men or women ) who are passing through the same problems as Steven 1.

Unfortunately , I don’t think there is a quick fix for it ; either you accept it and try to leave your life as best as you can without sex , or you walk away and restart your journey with someone else who has the same sex drive as you . Mismatched libido is one of the most difficulties things that a counselor has to deal with .

I have been trying to find successful stories about couples who underwent sex therapy , but most of them will recur - never heard about a partner ( either men or women) who became a sex machine after coconut oil , housechores shared or couple sex therapy with a counselor . It can definitively improve your life, but don’t expect miracles , otherwise you will became more frustrated like me - believe me , I been there and nothing worked . On the other hand , plenty of stories of people who turned the table after walking away and starting in a new relationship .

Please , I am not telling you to walk away , but you have to stop being sorry for yourselves and start enjoying other things in your life !! The chances are that your other half will feel less pressure and will feel more comfortable around you because there won’t be any pressure for sex .

So , learn how to deal with it and don’t take it personally , don’t leave it to affect your self steem and the way you enjoy live ! Start doing sports , go to the Gym , lose weight , go fishing , start that project you have being postponing for ages , get closer to your kids and you will feel better about yourself ,

Thank you for reading

Paul

Hi and welcome Paul and all those who've ventured onto this thread Steven1 began quite a while ago. It's really interesting how it keeps attracting posts long after the original member's flown. I don't think I've seen it happen on another thread tbh.

I usually go into a spiel about starting your own thread, but considering how active it is on here, I have to concede to its validity and need above usual protocol.

Personally, I can appreciate everything that's written. As a woman though, that type of desire isn't PC if you know what I mean. I see people are 'gender inclusive' when making comments, but I'm thinking this might be more polite than anything.

No issues mind you, as knowing what others feel is a guessing game until it's pretty much spelled out.

I haven't had sex for four yrs. "Awwwe.." sigh's the crowd. A mismatched libido or no sex for 67 days? I WISH!!! At least you have another body in the room. You can try to analyse everything till you're blue in the face my friends; but at the end of the day, you'll always be one up on me.

I guess that doesn't address the issue of a sexless marriage, I'm envious all the same. It goes without saying that for me, lack of intimacy runs at #1. Yes...I'm a woman; I promise!

2nd is being able to share responsibilities; mowing the lawn gets harder every year. My #3 is companionship. I wish it were different, I really do. I suppose I'm trying to give some semblance of perspective to our complaints.

Anyway, I just happened along and found your post Paul. I probably needed to write about how I feel. So thanks for giving me that opportunity.

Kind thoughts;

Sez

hi Paul, if you walk away from a r/ship/marriage because it's sexless and then hook up with someone else, the sex will start off being great, but it's most likely going to end up in the same situation, 'out of the pan and into the fire'.
Of course you can go looking and find someone on the side but this may terminate the r/ship/marriage and only make your situation worse.
Sex therapy may help but only for a short time and it's certainly not the 'be–all and end–all', women need the appreciation they deserve, but also the same applies for the men. Geoff.

Hi Paul,

I felt so encourage by these words you wrote:

"Please , I am not telling you to walk away , but you have to stop being sorry for yourselves and start enjoying other things in your life !! The chances are that your other half will feel less pressure and will feel more comfortable around you ....." and

"So , learn how to deal with it and don’t take it personally , don’t leave it to affect your self steem and the way you enjoy live ! Start doing sports , go to the Gym , lose weight , go fishing , start that project you have being postponing for ages , get closer to your kids and you will feel better about you...."

I think that is what my hubby may be experiencing . Pressure from me. So he does not feel comfortable and wants to be far away from me as possible . Maybe I am pushing him away, because he does not want to feel pressured??

Anyway I appreciate your words there Paul and thanks heaps.

Shell

Paul is right - pressure is the problem. The solution is harder than it sounds, but worth it.

I'm adjusting to a sex-free life now (wife with medical condition - a UTI went rogue and nearly killed her). It's not easy but it's just something we'll have to go through. And she misses out too. Imagination (both mental and physical) may fill the gap somewhat, but first we need to overcome fears and concerns.

Hi Sara ,

Thanks for your comments ; I see your point . Many people are scared of leaving their comfort zone due different reasons : financial hardship , lack of self steem , children , fear of not finding another partner and being lonely etc You name it !

There is a very thin line between PC and comfort zone with very few exceptions ;

I understand lack of desire is not a personal choice ,however having a high sex drive isn’t either !! It is a two way road and both sides have to be listened to.

For many of us , is easy to stay in our comfort zone and wait and see if things get better - most of times they won’t .... So , put changes in place to make your life better - there are things you just can’t change in life , and I think mismatched libido is one of them ... unfortunately!

There is nothing worse than being lonely when you are not alone . I bet you money i feel more lonely than you sometimes , even when I have another body in the room .

Thanks for your thoughts

Paul Me