Been watching the gifts children get for xmas and how they often perpetuate gender stereotypes. Boys often get trucks, tools, guns, robots etc while girls receive magical fairies, ballerina costumes, imitations of cooking equipment, dolls etc. Often wondered if this is subconscious or directed. How does it work in your culture? What types of messages did you get as a boy or girl growing up in your part of the world? I remember as a teacher one day the principal came to our class and said: ‘Can I borrow four strong boys to help me carry a bookshelf?’...What type of message does this gives to the girls in the room? How about the weak boys? Aren’t there strong girls around? Stronger than the average boy? How do stereotypes like these affect our mental health? What message do we give to our girls when every fairytale is about a princess waiting to be rescued and saved by the prince who will come in and take her away and she’ll be his forever? What are we preparing our boys and girls for? What messages does religion give? Culture? Society? Art? Chen’s? Songs? Why are we still preparing our boys for war and our girls for marriage and child bearing? How does this gender inequality affect our view of the world? Our part in it? What kind of harmful notions did you had to overcome in order to start your recovery process? ‘Boys don’t cry’, I hear you saying! Or ‘Boys will be boys’. Or ‘She’s daddy’s girl!’... What do all these mean in the context of your culture and attitudes that could perpetuate mental illness, domestic violence, submissive or aggressive behaviors, rape etc? Let’s put some thought into the small things and perhaps initiate some change to foster a healthier interaction and relationships.

Hi Donte

This subject is very subjective and potential of conflict. I will answer it though from my viewpoint.

Equality has its limits. The guy wanting "4 strong boys would not have risked furniture falling on someones toes. The physically weaker boys might be academically smarter. If the school needed 4 students to attend a inter school quiz they would be chosen! Why not a stronger less clever boy? The answer is obvious.

The military has for a few decades had woman men equality even on the battlefield.

For tens of thousands of years men had a role of hunter and protector. The fact is overall he was better at it than his female partner. His partner better at caring and nurturing considering she had breast milk and someone had to cook while he patrolled looking for aggressors.

Now, suddenly aftyer all that time of a successful combination within 40 years we humans have our roles altered. Some of that alteration is good. SSM, equal job opportunities, stay at home dads etc. But some not so good because the degree that equality goes to isnt wise imo.

The best roles for males and females to have is one whereby they both work as a team to get through life together. That cooperation has been proven to work since Adam was a boy. Now its being splintered with political correctness to an extent that we are confused who we are, what role we have and feel guilty all the time.

My daughters liked dressing up as fairies and whispering soft words to each other. They left my Tonka truck I had as a boy, in the cupboard. They liked being soft little people nurturing their dolls.

They left the Tonka truck there for their visiting male cousins.

Thats not unnatural. But I still left the Tonka Truck there in case they had a desire to grow up to work in the mines as a driver of a 200 ton tipper.

They had choices. Generally however, there are reasons for some traditional roles. Imo

Tony WK

I agree with Tony, Political correctness has gone too far. We need equal respect regardless of gender or race but we are not all the same. In general men are stronger whereas typically women are more nurturing. There are exceptions but in general this is the case. We are meant to work as a team with each member contributing. When we expect everyone to be the same we lose skills & expertise. My husband has a disability so I now have to do the heavy work he previously did. I miss the opportunity to rely on him to do the jobs I found really hard because of my lack of strength. I was brought up in a traditional home with my dad working & doing the garden & home renovation while mum did the housework & childcare. At the same time both parents clearly respected each other & assisted the other spouse in their roles. As children we were encouraged to chose our own path.

I have noticed that some cultures treat people very differently according to their gender which can be problematic. For example daughter is reluctant to have a daughter because in her husband's culture girls are overprotected and she has seen the negative impact this has had on her SIL.

Thanks whiteknight and Elizabeth CP for your posts on this topic.

As this thread is in the Multicultural Experiences section, we're particularly interested in having discussions on how culture can impact on mental health.  

To keep this discussion on track, it'd be great to hear more from members born overseas, the children of parents born overseas, have a language other than English as your primary language, or come from a family with mixed cultural heritage to hear your thoughts on the questions posed in Donte's original post.

Hello Whiteknight,

Thank you for your valuable insight and input. I agree with you. Gender stereotypes are very subjective and potentially can lead to conflict and affect the mental state of people and that’s why it’s good to raise this topic. Equity is more important than equality. Equality treats everyone the same whereas equity tries to address individual needs by eliminating barriers and addressing inclusiveness through the provision of appropriate supports. Choices and person-Centre approach is needed instead of generalizations and stereotypes as one size never fits all. Not one man or one woman is the same. Not one person from the same culture or religion is the same. It’s important to look at the individual and their needs within the cultural context they operate when trying to address their universal needs eg how their mental health (universal issue), impacts on their quality of life and what notions or attitudes (cultural) hinder or assist their recovery (individual). Great point also about how gender roles evolved through time. I also have raised a daughter who loved her ballerina dresses and still adores pink as an adult. My post isn’t about political correctness but rather about how gender stereotypes and expectations /traditional roles affect our mental health within specific cultural groups and religious settings. I am interested to explore with others from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds what types of messages did they get growing up in their country of origin or here in Australia from migrant parents, and how has this affected their lives, relationships and mental health later in life. How does this gender inequality affects our view of the world and what kind of harmful notions did we had to overcome in order to start our recovery process. You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned ‘choices’. It should always be about choice. Unfortunately, many don’t have choices as a result of their peer pressure, culture, religion, family etc. Or their choices are very limited and controlled by others. This often causes hopelessness, despair, anxiety, fear, depression and mental distress. This is precisely what I’d like us to address in this thread. :)

Thank you Elizabeth,

Good points indeed! It’s true that in certain cultures and groups it’s more evident that people are treated very differently according to their gender which can be problematic. We also see this exclusion in sports, religion, work, education etc. It can contribute to low self-esteem, negative self-image, feelings of worthlessness, inability to make decisions and a problematic mental health overall. These notions need to be challenged and addressed no matter how long they’ve been the norm. This thread was not about political correctness of course and neither about equality or the physical strength of males and females, so I’d be very interested to hear other people’s views about the way they were brought up and how this may have affected their mental health and possible barriers to accessing supports due to cultural notions and religious beliefs. :)

Hi Sophie,

Good point.That was the intention of the thread. Would be interesting to explore cultural notions that have affected us mentally or supported us in our journey of recovery. :)

Hi Donte, great thread concept

I was raised in the Western Suburbs of Melbourne. My parents came from Tasmania. We arrived in Melbourne as my brother was ill and needed the Childrens Hospital. I was a fifth and sixth generation Australian so I was the only student in my High school that didn't have migrant parents. So I learned a lot about cultural differences. Indeed I was an island because those from say Germany found fellow Germans to mix with and talk their language etc.

I had migrant friends and visited their homes. Their male and female roles were vastly different to mine. Women were more suppressed i.e. under the control of the husband. Even brothers dominated sisters. Daughters were in some cases treated less as an offspring because she would end up without the male surname meaning they would marry "into" another family. Women were also more likely to work in employment often factories. My mother was a stay at home one.

In Tasmania (I visited annually in xmas holidays to work on a dairy farm) their was also true to a lesser extent the son/daughter discrimination. But the English/Welsh traditions sent over with the ships of the early 19th century carried with them such discrimination. The settlers wanted sons to work the land. Daughters married into their husbands life and farm. I don't know if this was frequent on the mainland though. I'd guess so. but by the 1980's this tradition was becoming less obvious. The problems continued mainly through daughters contesting wills made by their parents that still held the old fashioned view of leaving all to the son. Such was the generation of people born around 1900 or earlier. So you can see that the sexual revolution and "burn the bra" period had a dramatic and argueably improvement on our world.

This inequality was worse among European families in my view.

That's my observations from a boys perspective.

Tony WK

Hi Donte' and others reading/posting;

Getting back to what you bought up originally; toys were once considered 'training tools' for adult roles. Girls got baby dolls and prams, and boys received building blocks or wooden swords. (For example only)

These toys usually replicated familial community/career paths of fathers passing down skills to sons, and mothers passing down nurturing/domestic skills to daughters; depending on cultural dictates and/or class/status.

Even books were aimed at 'life' and how to overcome obstacles until they began focusing on trends that created wealth instead of 'morals' or positive progress. Though some might argue Jane Austin, the Bronte' sisters, Emily Dickinson or Virginia Woolf for instance paved the way for the feminist movement in many cultures.

I haven't researched the subject so please allow for my layman's perspective and personal views.

Personally, I would've liked to be bought up in a family where continuity of culture and historical gender 'roles' were promoted. Instead, I was taught to be an individual first and foremost. There was a type of segregation that followed. Society said; "You can be anything you want to be" Too many choices, not enough guidance.

*Just a note: Personally, I believe this dislocation of familial 'togetherness' has contributed to my MH issues by lessening support systems and promoting isolation.

In many cultures, grandparents are looked after and gratefully accepted as respected 'elders' for being wise and experienced. Western culture doesn't seem to appreciate our ageing population this way.

What gift did I give my son this Xmas? A gift certificate from a shop that sells tools of his trade. He didn't follow in the footsteps of his Sinhalese father, or me either. He chose his own path for good or bad; it's the way society has evolved.

Great topic Donte'!

Sez

Hi Donte’ and all,

I was born in Australia but my parents were not born in Australia; I come from mixed descent and my heritage is part-Asian.

Perhaps I’ll try to to focus on this:

How does this gender inequality affects our view of the world and what kind of harmful notions did we had to overcome in order to start our recovery process.

I am female. As a child, I received dolls and prams while some of my male cousins received cars. I personally agree with you when one gives children stereotypically gender associated presents, there is an attached message about gender roles. For most of my childhood and pre-teen years, I just assumed that I would get married and have children because that’s “what girls do.”

But then something happened when I was in my early teens, I had an epiphany where I thought, “hold on a sec, do I actually want kids? Is this what I truly want?”

And then it dawned on me. “No.”

Just to be clear, I’m not trying to disparage parenthood; I have a great respect for parenthood but I’m saying it just isn’t my path.

I started to feel increasingly suffocated. When parenthood, especially motherhood, is often held in great esteem and seen as the “ultimate” that many reach in life in many cultures (including the multiple cultures that I come from), where does that leave people like me?

Am I less “female” because I’m making a conscious decision to not have children?

I wonder why my reproductive rights are constantly up for discussion amongst family?

I thought they were (are) my ovaries and therefore my decision to have or not have kids (without being badgered by various relatives)?

I’m trying to illustrate my point rather than expecting answers...

In terms of the toll on my mental health, I feel like an outcast. Relatives write me off as “selfish”, “immature”, etc because I have chosen not to pursue the expected path.

I feel nothing that I ever do will be “good enough” in their eyes purely because I don’t want children

So yes, I personally agree with your statement:

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned ‘choices’. It should always be about choice. Unfortunately, many don’t have choices as a result of their peer pressure, culture, religion, family etc. Or their choices are very limited and controlled by others. This often causes hopelessness, despair, anxiety, fear, depression and mental distress. This is precisely what I’d like us to address in this thread

Thanks for listening. I am thankful for this thread :)

Pepper xoxo

Hi all,

This topic brought back many memories from childhood, as a child i was never given gender specific toys, it was basically musical instruments such as guitar, maracas, flutes etc. the funny thing is that although I love dancing I am actually not musical at all.

I do remember that as a young teenager my mum used to always buy me dresses and I loved wearing jeans/shorts/pants, and this constant battle that my mum and I had about not being feminine enough still haunts me and it did question my self esteem /image and I used to feel not very pretty. I did promise myself that if I ever had a girl I would never do this to her - I don't - but my mum says to my daughter how much prettier she would look if she wore a dress, i tell my daughter that she looks beautiful even if she chose to wear a potato sack. but this goes back to our home country because if you look pretty are well dress,wear makeup you get treated much better. people there get change and put on makeup to go supermarket shopping.

cheers

Thanks Tony for your input. I arrived in Melbourne in the mid 80s but what you describe is a story I hear from many older migrants who migrated in the 50s. Interesting to hear about the realities growing up in Tasmania too! I think that even though today the setting is very diverse there are common threads experienced by all no matter what era we migrated. It’s part of the integration process. We all learn from each other individually and collectively, locally as well as globally. Still long way to go but definitely on the right direction I believe. :)

Thank you Sez,

Your contribution and feedback is very valuable. I agree. I’d like to know how your experience has contributed to your mental health struggle if you’d like to elaborate. I think it would be beneficial for many of us. (Only if you feel comfortable doing so). :)

I wonder what the statement 'pretty in pink' means for boys. Perhaps Úgly in blue' Obviously I don't think that but I wonder how males see it particularly as their role is no longer so clear. In the past males were the protectors & breadwinners. Now women can get pregnant through IVF so even fatherhood is no longer a necessary role. I wonder how often that lack of a clear role in life impacts on men's mental health. Culture plays a huge part in this because if you have been brought up to think you need to behave in one way & then come to Australia &find that is not acceptable it is hard.

Religeous culture has an impact. For example people in my religion expect you to observe traditional roles with the husband as the bread winner & the wife looking after the children & house. I followed this because I believed it was right. The problems occur when society sees things differently. For example there is a message from politicians & others claiming that if you are not working & paying taxes you are a burden on society. This left me feeling isolated & torn between the two sets of expectations. The other even bigger issue was when the situation changed and my husband & I were no longer able to fulfil our normal roles. Years ago my husband was unemployed for several years. This is hard enough for anyone but when you believe that is an essential role it is harder. I went back to work but felt torn by the conflicting expectations. I felt I had to justify what I was doing to my family members to stop them seeing me as being rebellious. It didn't matter that they said nothing the feeling of being judged was there. Now my husband is disabled & we relied on my income until I went on a carers pension. Feeling a lesser person because he can no longer work & support me is a reality for my husband.

My son has a MI. The expectation that his wife has that he earn enough money for them (while she spends it excessively) has lead to a lot of stress for him as he can't earn enough to meet her expectations. This has led to serious bouts of depression, psych admissions, & loss of employment casing further downward spiral.

My point is this issue is more complex & has major ramifications than just what toys children play with & treating everyone equally particularlly in such a diverse society as ours. What do others think?

Hi again Donte';

Thanks for your interest and questions.

Elizabeth touched on how culture impacted my MH; as did Lolita and Pepper. Traditional gender roles within families and communities have interested me for a long time. When young I adopted an independent (70's) streak; travelled, sowed my wild oats, married/divorced, had my son, studied and worked in the helping professions thru it all.

Decades down the track, I'm feeling a sense of loss; a gap.

I remember visiting a (Sicilian) friends house one Sunday in my teens where the family gathered for lunch each week. The home-made chunky wooden table was long enough to fit a dozen or more people. The room echoed with clanging plates, laughter and men arguing over homeland topics while Mamma doted over her sons, grand-kids and food.

Children were integral in the goings on and parents dealt with them while continuing their input at the table. It was chaotic yet absolutely joyful.

When my MH hit the skids, I wanted to reach out to loved ones for help and reassurance, but I didn't. I withdrew and went thru the worst of it alone; true to my independent trait. I'm still alone and wishing for a replica of that Sicilian family from long ago.

I read stat's and comments about women who chose either career over domestic duties, or vice-versa. Both groups felt unfulfilled. I had to do it all on my own! Nobody commented on us single parents.

Single parenthood may be an acceptable norm in our culture, but expecting us to be both mum and dad without a close family network to help out, life takes its toll...and did.

What I would give to have a career and man to come home to, or support a man who comes home to me, is insurmountable. A Yin and Yang home environment in all its glory whether it's one way or the other. No man or woman is an island.

I have no doubt some men also suffer alone in silence. What has western society created?! It might be good to hear from male members on this topic.

Sez

*Addit: I only talked about traditional male/female relationships in my post, but same-sex and 'other' family units are just as important. Sez

Hi all,

Great topic here. My parents had the traditional roles, mum at home when we grew up, dad working. Even though this evolved my first wife and I married in 1985 and we sort two things, a country life and the same dad, mum roles.

So we had two children however, living in the country posed issues of commuting to work. High running costs and not being able to save for a new car saw a second job then a third. This was just to pay a mortgage and allow my then wife to stay at home. Such was the property prices. In fact it was harder in the 90's IMO to do that than the 60's. In the 60's many men walked to local workplaces, in the 90's and beyond, a car was essential.

So, for other reasons my marriage folded. In the 90's shared care for children was barely existing. It was commonplace to leave the kids with their mother. This situation was tough on the kids and I made sure I continually promised my girls that I would always pick them up fortnightly. I can tell you that my heart was ripped out leaving my kids, but there was no choice as I was emotionally abused for 11 years and attempted suicide. one week before I left. At rock bottom I decided that better to be a part time dad than no dad at all. My eldest got married this year and I walked her down the aisle, who would have if I wasn't there?

Every generation improves in vital areas. The pink dress scenario and insisting not wearing jeans can be corrected by a modern mother that suffered as a result. It's almost like fear that their daughter wont grow up straight? My parents virtually pushed my sister into marriage at 18yo because they had fear she would fall pregnant...heaven...what horror, what will the neighbours think?

Being a baby boomer has left me with some inground discomfort though when I see young adults dress the same. I know this shouldn't be but I cant shake what was 1/ instilled in me and 2/ I like girls in the feminine dress, pony tails, makeup. They are always more attractive to me. However, if that is not what a girl likes to do then I value peoples rights. Just saying what I like and I know a lot of men the same.

Now we have an economic situation whereby both parents work full time and are still poor in some ways.

I'm a little unusual , maybe not Sez, but I would have done anything to be a stay at home dad..I hope that gives a perspective for you from this guy anyway.

Tony WK

Hi Peper,

Thank you for your response. Yes, choices are a human right. It is all about choices. Not everyone shares this belief of course or encourages the freedom of choice and especially in collectivist cultures where tribal mentalities prevail. In many groups the choices are made by the group or the leaders of the group. If the individual's choice is different to that of the group then the group's decision prevails, thus, the individual gets discriminated, marginalized and often cut off or persecuted. There is always diversity within diversity and luckily as people get more educated and learn to think for themselves they tend to break away from oppressive molds. The more affluent and independent people become, the more they rely less on each other as their needs are met in different ways. 'Community' is not the same for a post-War migrant to a generation Y person or an aboriginal for example. In regards to mental health, we know that cultural or religious oppression can bring a lot of suffering upon people, even if it provides relief, guidance and support to others in that group. Inter-generational ideas also play a big role. Baby-boomers in general, for example, may react and respond differently to mental illness to the way generation X or generation Y. Many older people may listen to their doctor and never question that authority. Younger groups may do some research themselves or get another opinion before they choose a course of action. While most Gen Y may know exactly what they want and go to services asking specifically for something after they have made their decision. As people integrate into the Australian way of life, as groups move away (geographically) due to financial reasons and spread out with new housing etc and mingle with other people outside of their group, as the second and third generations of migrant children receive tertiary education and become professionals, doctors, lawyers etc and engage in relationships of all types, including with people of other cultures, religions, or same sex etc., attitudes inevitably change. You are a prime example of this integration and progress. It should always be about choice. Hopefully, in today's society, as the pressure from culture, religion, family etc. eases and as people's choices become more accepted, respected, encouraged and protected by law they will be less limited and controlled by others. This may ease the hopelessness, despair, anxiety, fear, depression and mental distress for many.

Thanks Lolita01!

It's amazing the impact on one's life of those cultural notions, traditions and expectations, even years, decades later. It can truly haunt us and affect us for the rest of our lives, shape our views, influence our thinking and dictate our behaviour. For many people it may take years, if ever, to challenge these imposed values and indoctrination. We could get to mid-life before starting to dissecting all these and see truly how they have affected our mental health causing havoc in our lives and our relationships. I try to make a conscious effort to not compliment my child's appearance but rather look through all that to the inner qualities and abilities she has and comment on these. Resilience building and positive self-image is an internal quality I believe. :)

That's such a lovely picture you painted in my mind with that Sicilian family Sara,

Thank you. I could almost feel I was there, smelling the food and hearing the laughter. I grew up in a Greek family in Athens. I have only one brother, five years younger. We are not close. When I was in primary school he was a newborn. Went to high-school, he started primary. Was at Uni, he was in high-school. Got married and had my child, he was partying and living a wild life. Then I divorced, he got married. My daughter is 22. He has no kids...I guess we were never on the same page. I don't have images like the one you described to remember from my childhood and neither does my daughter who's an only child raised by a single dad with no extended family here in Australia. On the other hand, I know of Anglo-Australian families with long tables and big families who get together regularly and experience what you described. I agree with you that beyond cultural or linguistic background, humans crave to be connected, to have a sense of belonging, a group with common interests and what we call 'community' and fellowship with each other. The absence of that may create isolation and contribute to mental illness. But connection can happen in many ways and forms and engagement can be positive through other means today, social media for example, or forums like this one. In a world where families shrink in numbers more and more, economics, career, and other factors dictate where we live, how we live etc, I guess many fulfill this need for connection and belonging in different ways through technology etc. As long as it works for the individual, then I believe it is beneficial. We can only do whatever we can with the resources we are given.

Hi Elizabeth,

Yes, this issue is more complex and has major ramifications than just what toys children play with and treating everyone equally. I think it starts from childhood, - toys, stories we tell, songs we sing, roles we copy from our parents and significant others as well as the messages we get from school, religious and community leaders and institutions, what the media portrays etc - and continues to affect us, shape our thinking and influences us throughout our lives subconsciously or consciously. Many people from various cultures and religions have trouble adapting to change. We all have been conditioned to think and behave in certain ways depending where we grew up, what era, what location, under what regime, religion and culture and in what linguistic and historical context we found ourselves growing up. However, change is the only inevitable thing as language, culture, beliefs etc change and evolve constantly according to the people who use them and are part of, particularly through migration and in a multicultural setting, what's right for one group may be wrong for another. But even within the same group of course there is never homogeneous approaches to life and mental health. That's what I enjoy mostly about life in Australia: choices. Individuals and groups have more choices here and those choices are tolerated, accepted, embraced and equally respected much more than in my country of origin. Pluralism is so enriching and provides us with the responsibility to choose for ourselves knowing that there's no right or wrong and one size doesn't fit all but there are always consequences, positive or negative. If we are aware of this and choose responsibly for ourselves then we could only grow and expand as individuals, cultures and society in general and hopefully enjoy better mental health outcomes as a result.

Hi Donte’ and all,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and intelligent response. I loved, loved, loved your points :)

In particular, I really liked:

There is always diversity within diversity and luckily as people get more educated and learn to think for themselves they tend to break away from oppressive molds.

'Community' is not the same for a post-War migrant to a generation Y person or an aboriginal for example.

Hopefully, in today's society, as the pressure from culture, religion, family etc. eases and as people's choices become more accepted, respected, encouraged and protected by law they will be less limited and controlled by others. This may ease the hopelessness, despair, anxiety, fear, depression and mental distress for many.

Beautifully written :)

As I touched on, one of the ongoing arguments that I have with multiple family members/relatives is essentially about their culturally fuelled belief in the sanctity of motherhood (that they feel every woman, including me, has an obligation to uphold) versus my belief in my right to make my own decisions about my own body without pressure, coercion, emotional blackmail, interference, etc.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts and allowing me to share my personal views and experience.

You truly are an asset and “breath of fresh air” on the forums. I admire your open mindedness, insight and intelligence.

Caring thoughts,

Pepper

Hi Pepper,

I’m glad to be a part of these forums and share with each other ideas and thoughts on mental health and multicultural experiences. Thoroughly enjoy the interaction these forums provide and the engagement between members. It’s great to explore our truths and have this platform to be able to articulate our experiences, share and exchange ideas via these threads which can lead to resilience building and potentially create a supportive, understanding environment where we can be ourselves and share our struggles, victories and everything in between on this path of recovery. Looking forward to more. :)

Hi Donte’ and all,

Well, I’m glad you’re on the forums too :)

I agree that it’s great to have this space to share ideas and personal experiences and stories. We can all hopefully learn from each other and maybe look at things from a new angle at times that we hadn’t previously considered.

Thanks Donte’

Caring thoughts,

Pepper